Looking back at the film days when few if any bodies had a grip I have to wonder why it`s so controversial. The heavy brick Pentax K1000 as well as so many others weighed so much more and were larger and bulkier than most current digitals. The $8K full frame leica M10 is considerably bigger , bulkier, and heavier than the XE4 and IT lacks a grip.Obviously there was a lot more real estate on those old film cameras .One XE4 Dpreview review comment even asked if we humans had lost our ability to hold on to a camera with our fingers.All that said , it IS nice to have the option to add a grip on a camera.I`m expecting my XE4 /w 27mm to arrive early next week.

Everything was less ergonomic in the olden days. Now we’re much better at building things to fit our bodies, rather than the limits of the fabrication process.

Some people like having grips all the time, some people like the option of adding a grip.Not a grip-gripe, just a grip-preference.

I agree. I own several cameras that I was told "needed" an auxuliary grip and were "useless" without one, and I have never put a grip on any of them. One of the things I like about my X-T10 and X-Pro1 is that they are ordinary flat cameras that you can just pick up and shoot, with lots of different ways to hold on.I had a K1000 for many, many years,and I never remember thinking it was heavy, at least not with a simple f/2 prime on it.  Of course, compared to a modern camera, it was mostly an empty box.

mistercharlie wrote:Everything was less ergonomic in the olden days. Now we’re much better at building things to fit our bodies, rather than the limits of the fabrication process.Do you REALLY believe this, or are you just playing around?

Serious amateurs used to be instructed early on how to hold a camera -- weight was supported with the left palm from underneath. Right hand sort of floated and operated the shutter. A grip isn't needed for the latter.

bowportes wrote:Serious amateurs used to be instructed early on how to hold a camera -- weight was supported with the left palm from underneath. Right hand sort of floated and operated the shutter. A grip isn't needed for the latter.You clearly haven't watched enough recent movies or YT videos.  Apparently, we're supposed to wave our cameras out in space with one hand snapping pictures.  Goes right along with that rear TV-thingie.

Silly topic. Everyone shoots differently. Some people like having no grip and some are unhappy with no grip. Just like some people like the X Pro 3 LCD and some aren’t happy with it. There are no rules everyone should follow just because your school used to teach you to hold a camera one way and some classic cameras don’t have grips.This thread is about as useful as complaining that some people don’t like silver cameras. People have different tastes, wants and needs. 🙄

bowportes wrote:mistercharlie wrote:Everything was less ergonomic in the olden days. Now we’re much better at building things to fit our bodies, rather than the limits of the fabrication process.Do you REALLY believe this, or are you just playing around?Half and half. We’ve gotten great at making stuff, but we’ve used these advances to make things as cheaply as possible, rather than as good as possible. In general. There are exceptions of course.Now you’ve got me thinking about this. It’s hard to compare things because all today’s gadgets are computers, and all the old (good) gadgets were more like mechanical watchesI’m pretty sure my F3 will outlast my X-Pro3, though

Veducci wrote:Looking back at the film days when few if any bodies had a grip I have to wonder why it`s so controversial. The heavy brick Pentax K1000 as well as so many others weighed so much more and were larger and bulkier than most current digitals. The $8K full frame leica M10 is considerably bigger , bulkier, and heavier than the XE4 and IT lacks a grip.Obviously there was a lot more real estate on those old film cameras .One XE4 Dpreview review comment even asked if we humans had lost our ability to hold on to a camera with our fingers.All that said , it IS nice to have the option to add a grip on a camera.I`m expecting my XE4 /w 27mm to arrive early next week.Yeah, but even back then my first camera, the Olympus OM-10, was totally slick. I bought the motor winder, not only so I could shoot sports (and go broke faster burning through film), but it added a grip, which was quite welcomed.Overall, I’d say that built-in grips was a step forward in gear evolution. (Too bad I can’t say the same thing about articulating screens 😉). But for those of us that still like gripless cameras, it’s nice to have options.I bought the grip and the thumb rest for my XE4, and find that I’m really ok in every configuration.FWIW

Street_Photography wrote:Silly topic. Everyone shoots differently. Some people like having no grip and some are unhappy with no grip. Just like some people like the X Pro 3 LCD and some aren’t happy with it.There are no rules everyone should follow just because your school used to teach you to hold a camera one way and some classic cameras don’t have grips.This thread is about as useful as complaining that some people don’t like silver cameras. People have different tastes, wants and needs. 🙄Silly topic you say but you managed to participate anyway.

Veducci wrote:Street_Photography wrote:Silly topic. .... 🙄Silly topic you say but you managed to participate anyway.Yes, to make it clear this is a ridiculous topic of discussion. It is complaining about people complaining about something you like but they don't. As if everyone should be the same and like the same. 😂It's not going to help. Just like people still voice their X Pro 3 LCD opinion occasionally, those who don't like the lack of grips and controls will continue complaining about the XE4.Just to sweeten my post with some content you seem to think it needs: The lack of grip has ruined the XE line, which started as a mini X Pro camera and now has gone completely in a different direction (ultra minimal and more touchscreen controlled) . Some of us won't continue with the line, but loads of people think it's good.This thread is like me complaining that you like the camera, ridiculous. I am glad people like it, good for you. Variety is the spice of life. You aren't wrong for liking it and nor am I for not liking it. This is getting boring 😴😴😴💤

Street_Photography wrote:Veducci wrote:Street_Photography wrote:Silly topic. .... 🙄Silly topic you say but you managed to participate anyway.Yes, to make it clear this is a ridiculous topic of discussion. It is complaining about people complaining about something you like but they don't. As if everyone should be the same and like the same. 😂It's not going to help. Just like people still voice their X Pro 3 LCD opinion occasionally, those who don't like the lack of grips and controls will continue complaining about the XE4.Just to sweeten my post with some content you seem to think it needs: The lack of grip has ruined the XE line, which started as a mini X Pro camera and now has gone completely in a different direction (ultra minimal and more touchscreen controlled) . Some of us won't continue with the line, but loads of people think it's good.This thread is like me complaining that you like the camera, ridiculous. I am glad people like it, good for you. Variety is the spice of life. You aren't wrong for liking it and nor am I for not liking it. This is getting boring 😴😴😴💤Hi!...and now you are doingbthe same: you are complaining of someone complaining of someone's complaining! It is not going to help...:-DA s l a

The Pentax K1000 was my first SLR, wish I'd kept it. If you look at the spec it was 143mm wide, this compares with 118mm for my X-T20 and 121mm for the gripless X-E4. I never remember a problem holding it but that extra width must help.

I am going back and forth with grips. I never needed one until I used the X100 series. For some reason the camera felt much better with a grip. I used flat Olympus cameras for years with no problem. Strangely with the XT3 I instantly bought a grip but i will put it on Ebay soon. Together with the attached plate it is just a hassle to get the camera out of bags and backpacks.  Recently I used an almost 1kg Jupiter lens plus adapter and I did not feel the need for a grip while shooting. Carrying the camera though was something different because I felt uncomfortable having so much weight dangling around that wanted to slightly hold the camera. A grip would have been nice for that.Sometimes I wish that the grips could be attached without a full plate on the bottom. Maybe with some attachment points...I think the early Sony RX100 had something like this.

thedullchannel wrote:Sometimes I wish that the grips could be attached without a full plate on the bottom. Maybe with some attachment points...I think the early Sony RX100 had something like this.The Pentax KP usefully has a choice of interchangeable grips, like this:https://www.dpreview.com/news/5120223341/hands-on-with-ricohs-compact-pentax-kp?slide=11&imageViewer=1

Grips arose more of of necessity to give camera makers extra space without making the general form factor larger - especially has higher battery capacity was required by cameras.  Of course the grip led to sloppy camera holding - that is holding the camera with one hand.  As more and more junk is integrated into cameras grips are a good place to put electronics and other items.  For example, wifi antenna (although Fuji hasn't figured out how to do that and Leica in their M10 with no grip has).  Blue tooth antenna.  extra space for IBIS, on and on.Watching people today slinging their camera up to their eye and shooting with one hand reminds me of the poor slug that shows up for his first shooting competition and holds his handgun in one hand sideways and then wonders why the range safety officer ask him to leave.The grip has become just another item to give people an excuse to whimper and gripe.   For my money - leave them off.  But then where would all the extra junk be put.  It has nothing to do with ergonomics.  A grip too small is uncomfortable to someone with large hands and a grip too large is really uncomfortable to someone with small hands.  For a grip to be ergonomic - it would need to be custom fitted to the hand.

About 8 years ago I sprained my wrist badly enough to need a cast.This made it impossible to hold my DSLR (with a grip) because it forced my wrist to bend down and forward when bringing the camera to my eye. My mirrorless Xpro1 was no problem because I could rest the edge of the camera in the heel of my hand and keep my wrist straight.

Street_Photography wrote:This thread is about as useful as complaining that some people don’t like silver cameras. People have different tastes, wants and needs. 🙄Or as my beloved Grandpappy would say - "useless as tits on a bore hog."  We see if that makes it past our censors.

Veducci wrote:Looking back at the film days when few if any bodies had a grip I have to wonder why it`s so controversial. The heavy brick Pentax K1000 as well as so many others weighed so much more and were larger and bulkier than most current digitals. The $8K full frame leica M10 is considerably bigger , bulkier, and heavier than the XE4 and IT lacks a grip.Cameras also used to have dim finders, no metering, no AF, backs that had to be removed completely in order to load film, etc.  Our expectations have changed.