here's the deal. basically, what I am contemplating of doing is: sell the T1i/500d+(month old)EF10-22mmand get a used/minty 5d classic. this is an ultimately big decision for me, so I'm hoping you guys can weigh in on this and help me figure out what to do. mainly here are my choices: (pick the answer you like best)outright sell 500d+10-22mm then locate a good 5dwait it out until 5dIII comes out and see the effects to camera body priceslearn, practice, learn, learn, practice and quit whining about my fantastic gearfigure out how to borrow $1k, try out 5d first. if it sticks, sell rebel+lens if not, sell 5d return money.shut my trap and just take picturesif you're interested in my reasons, why I'd like to do it:sell the t1i while I can still ask 450-500 for it.huge jump in IQ (hopefully)would love a full frame sensor (oh, yeah!) I mainly would like to take pictures of people, so old AF will do. Pentaprism sounds fantastic, and I can get old manual focus lenses, like c/y 25 2.8 or 50/1.7 (sharp & cheap) because of it.I have a love/hate relationship with the 10-22mm. luvin' it for the weight,size, AWESOME performance and hatin' it because I can't justify having it. It frustrates me to no end that I can't produce quality (aesthetic-wise) images with it. Maybe it would be better to just accept that fact and let it part before I tear my brains out.would like the idea of a true 35/2 & 85/1.8 combo. (not really sure here)I would look like a pro using a huge camera w/ a top LCD on itwhy I don't love this idea:would terribly miss the gorgeous 3" screen on the back of the T1iit's6 years old, which is 13 in camera years IMO. Is it very risky using a 6 year old camera?CF cards are expensive! aren't they?relatively bigger and heavier than my rebel, I'm afraid it might stay in the house because of the bulkiness plus, I would need to purchase a new camera bag, psh.if 5dIII is released then, 5dII prices goes down to 1500, 5d classic goes down to 700and by then I already have paid 1k for it (with my luck, there's a 70-30 chance exactly this would happen to me).I thought 5d had live view, argh. now there's one more reason why I'm bummedwould need better lenses than my 35/2 and 85/1.8 (??)so..much thanks for even reaching this part. It would tremendously help if you have any points of argument or thoughts/violent reactions you'd like to add. Thank you!

Sounds to me like you need some more practice with the 10-22Have you tried some fun portraits with the 10-22?Basically if you suck at using the 500D, you'll suck with the 5DMoney doesn't make you happy, but does make your depressions more extravagantI don't see much point in getting the old 5D, that's why I've opted for a 7D after all. I've considered the 5D mk II but it would cost me much more to have the same lens line up compared to a crop body. That's what holding me back.Some points:FF will need to completely rethink your lens line-up. Many times to see any improvement (ignoring the photogs skills) is in getting in good expensive lenses even then the improvements will be minor unless you go for 2K+ lenses like the 200mm f/2L, which will be great regardless of FF or crop body.The 5D is old technology, you may not see much improvement in noise. It does resolve color slightly better though.I'd invest in other/better lenses if that is what's holding you back. Otherwise I'd put my money into improving your skills. A vacation with nice scenery/street candids etc. Courses, a photo club.I shoot wildlife so the 1.6 crop factor comes in handy. Also good for candidsThe 5D is bulky and heavy, especially with good quality glass like the 16-35 or 24-70L.The viewfinder in the 5D is huge indeed, and bright but you'd still need a split prism focusing screen to get the most out of manual focus lenses. It doesn't have LV as you say so you can't AF that way.CF cards are cheaper per gigabyte than SD cards. I got a 32GB card 400x speed for 70 euro. Check what size the 5D can take though. The 5D doesn't need a fast card either, a 133x would be plenty fast enough.You may have to get a couple of new batteries for it.The 5D doesn't have picture styles for good or worse. And a tiny screen.5D doesn't take EF-S lensesBut alas we seldom listen to reasonIf you feel you want the 5D then just get one. It may give you a new incentive/spark to go out and play with your camera gear and improve your skills. Sometimes it's just as simple as that.bakez04wrote:here's the deal. basically, what I am contemplating of doing is: sell the T1i/500d+(month old)EF10-22mmand get a used/minty 5d classic. this is an ultimately big decision for me, so I'm hoping you guys can weigh in on this and help me figure out what to do. mainly here are my choices: (pick the answer you like best)outright sell 500d+10-22mm then locate a good 5dwait it out until 5dIII comes out and see the effects to camera body priceslearn, practice, learn, learn, practice and quit whining about my fantastic gearfigure out how to borrow $1k, try out 5d first. if it sticks, sell rebel+lens if not, sell 5d return money.shut my trap and just take picturesif you're interested in my reasons, why I'd like to do it:sell the t1i while I can still ask 450-500 for it.huge jump in IQ (hopefully)would love a full frame sensor (oh, yeah!) I mainly would like to take pictures of people, so old AF will do. Pentaprism sounds fantastic, and I can get old manual focus lenses, like c/y 25 2.8 or 50/1.7 (sharp & cheap) because of it.I have a love/hate relationship with the 10-22mm. luvin' it for the weight,size, AWESOME performance and hatin' it because I can't justify having it. It frustrates me to no end that I can't produce quality (aesthetic-wise) images with it. Maybe it would be better to just accept that fact and let it part before I tear my brains out.would like the idea of a true 35/2 & 85/1.8 combo. (not really sure here)I would look like a pro using a huge camera w/ a top LCD on itwhy I don't love this idea:would terribly miss the gorgeous 3" screen on the back of the T1iit's6 years old, which is 13 in camera years IMO. Is it very risky using a 6 year old camera?CF cards are expensive! aren't they?relatively bigger and heavier than my rebel, I'm afraid it might stay in the house because of the bulkiness plus, I would need to purchase a new camera bag, psh.if 5dIII is released then, 5dII prices goes down to 1500, 5d classic goes down to 700and by then I already have paid 1k for it (with my luck, there's a 70-30 chance exactly this would happen to me).I thought 5d had live view, argh. now there's one more reason why I'm bummedwould need better lenses than my 35/2 and 85/1.8 (??)so..much thanks for even reaching this part. It would tremendously help if you have any points of argument or thoughts/violent reactions you'd like to add. Thank you!

The 5D does have picture styles.One big minus of the 5D is lack of electronic sensor cleaning. And its sensor attracts a lot of dust. I had given up on cleaning the sensor and used to fix dust spots in post processing. -- Olga

Olga Johnsonwrote:The 5D does have picture styles.I'm mistaken, thanks for setting me straight

bakez04wrote:sell the t1i while I can still ask 450-500 for it.I'd agree with that, I'd personally get a 550D or 60D if I were you.huge jump in IQ (hopefully)there wont be. the jump will be noticeable but small, especially if you mostly view yoru images on computer or print small.would love a full frame sensor (oh, yeah!) I mainly would like to take pictures of people, so old AF will do. Pentaprism sounds fantastic, and I can get old manual focus lenses, like c/y 25 2.8 or 50/1.7 (sharp & cheap) because of it.but why not just stick to modern fast and sharp AF lenses?I have a love/hate relationship with the 10-22mm. luvin' it for the weight,size, AWESOME performance and hatin' it because I can't justify having it. It frustrates me to no end that I can't produce quality (aesthetic-wise) images with it. Maybe it would be better to just accept that fact and let it part before I tear my brains out.UWA lenses are very hard to use because the visual distortion it creates, I have been using UWA on and off for about 2 years and I think only recently I started to understand "when not to use it", and "how to use it properly"would like the idea of a true 35/2 & 85/1.8 combo. (not really sure here)personally i always find "35 F2 set up" to be overrated, what is wrong with F2.8? 17-55 F2.8 is pretty much four F2.8 USM primes in one body - 28 F2.8, 35 F2.8, 50 F2.8, 85 F2.8, and has IS!!why I don't love this idea:would terribly miss the gorgeous 3" screen on the back of the T1iyeah, it is a big issue for me too, I frequently use a friend's 1Ds2, the onlything you can accurately tell from the LCD play back is framing.it's6 years old, which is 13 in camera years IMO. Is it very risky using a 6 year old camera?5D was not a pro grade camera, its shutter mechanism and body are not top quality. I know someone whose 5D's mirror had fallen off after about 4 years. personally I would not buy a used 5DI - you can not really get a bargain price because too many people want them so the used price is always (in my view) too high.CF cards are expensive! aren't they?no, for the same spec they are about the same as SDwould need better lenses than my 35/2 and 85/1.8 (??)although 35f2 and 85 f1.8 are good enough for 5DI, several other EF lenses are more expensive buy optically not better than their EFS counter part, for example 24-70 vs 17-55 IS, 24-105 vs 15-85, 16-35 and 17-40 vs 10-22. that is something to keep in mind.for what its worth, I also would love to get a FF body, I love the idea of having 2 bodies which effectively doubles my lens collection. but I would not buy a second hand one, I believe just like 55 inch TVs, FF cameras will fall in price.

imqqmiwrote:Sounds to me like you need some more practice with the 10-22Have you tried some fun portraits with the 10-22?You bet I do! I feel like a total newb when looking at my pictures from this lens. Its like its the first time I've ever used a dslr. Now that you mention it, I haven't tried it with people that much yet. I don't like the distortions it creates, but I'd love to find ways to use it for people shots.Basically if you suck at using the 500D, you'll suck with the 5DMoney doesn't make you happy, but does make your depressions more extravaganthaha! unfortunately, this is SOOO true.I don't see much point in getting the old 5D, that's why I've opted for a 7D after all. I've considered the 5D mk II but it would cost me much more to have the same lens line up compared to a crop body. That's what holding me back.The only thing that makes me want it is price+FF+viewfinder+color rendering (only from what I've seen and read though). Really? didn't realize you considered a FF. I've always thought of you as the long reach, trusty AF kinda guy so a 7d was a no brainer for you.Some points:FF will need to completely rethink your lens line-up. Many times to see any improvement (ignoring the photogs skills) is in getting in good expensive lenses even then the improvements will be minor unless you go for 2K+ lenses like the 200mm f/2L, which will be great regardless of FF or crop body.woah! we're talking about a 200 f/2 now? hold your horses there..heheThe 5D is old technology, you may not see much improvement in noise. It does resolve color slightly better though.I thought noise is significantly manageable in FF? the ISO 1600 feels like 800 kind of noise..I'd invest in other/better lenses if that is what's holding you back. Otherwise I'd put my money into improving your skills. A vacation with nice scenery/street candids etc. Courses, a photo club.Oh no, nothing more to invest. That plan was made so that the sale equals out the purchase. Nothing's really holding me back per se, its just that the allure of FF seems irresistible. Although, I signed up for the flashbus tour (strobist and mcnally) when they pass here in April so I'm totally pumped up for that! There are inexhaustible scenery/candids just in DC, so I'm pretty much covered for at least the next two years.I shoot wildlife so the 1.6 crop factor comes in handy. Also good for candidsThe 5D is bulky and heavy, especially with good quality glass like the 16-35 or 24-70L.Thought so too.The viewfinder in the 5D is huge indeed, and bright but you'd still need a split prism focusing screen to get the most out of manual focus lenses. It doesn't have LV as you say so you can't AF that way.bummer. I thought all I needed was a nice and bright VF. don't want to go through all the hassle of that, I've read some horror stories of people messing up their VF because of focusing screens.CF cards are cheaper per gigabyte than SD cards. I got a 32GB card 400x speed for 70 euro. Check what size the 5D can take though. The 5D doesn't need a fast card either, a 133x would be plenty fast enough.You may have to get a couple of new batteries for it.The 5D doesn't have picture styles for good or worse. And a tiny screen.5D doesn't take EF-S lensesBut alas we seldom listen to reasonIf you feel you want the 5D then just get one. It may give you a new incentive/spark to go out and play with your camera gear and improve your skills. Sometimes it's just as simple as that.Haha! I wish! this time, budget dictates reason. If its not justifiable at all, I wouldn't go through with it. That's also why the 10-22mm doubts came along. Thanks for your insights man, I've always valued it in high regard. Cheers mate!

Olga Johnsonwrote:The 5D does have picture styles.One big minus of the 5D is lack of electronic sensor cleaning. And its sensor attracts a lot of dust. I had given up on cleaning the sensor and used to fix dust spots in post processing.Oh yeah, totally forgot about that. Thanks for remining me (and adding more points to the cons list) My friend has the legendary D3 and all he complains about is dust, dust and dust.Thanks for taking the time to read and comment.

ultimitsuwrote:bakez04wrote:sell the t1i while I can still ask 450-500 for it.I'd agree with that, I'd personally get a 550D or 60D if I were you.While I'd sooo love to upgrade, there's really no budget for it. It was designed so the sale equals the purchase + / -50 bucks for shipping costs. Plus, I'm so skill-deficient right now, last thing I'd need are new features to play withhuge jump in IQ (hopefully)there wont be. the jump will be noticeable but small, especially if you mostly view yoru images on computer or print small.I was hoping I'd at least get a few notches in IQ while maintaining same lenses. But better noise control and shallower DOF would be very welcome additions.would love a full frame sensor (oh, yeah!) I mainly would like to take pictures of people, so old AF will do. Pentaprism sounds fantastic, and I can get old manual focus lenses, like c/y 25 2.8 or 50/1.7 (sharp & cheap) because of it.but why not just stick to modern fast and sharp AF lenses?Cost, perhaps? Its so expensive once you get to the sharpness levels of 70-200/4 or 10-22mm but at apertures of about 2.8 and lower. Especially with wide-normal FLs. And I'd much rather go full manual focus lenses only than deal with third party focusing issues (just my preference though).I have a love/hate relationship with the 10-22mm. luvin' it for the weight,size, AWESOME performance and hatin' it because I can't justify having it. It frustrates me to no end that I can't produce quality (aesthetic-wise) images with it. Maybe it would be better to just accept that fact and let it part before I tear my brains out.UWA lenses are very hard to use because the visual distortion it creates, I have been using UWA on and off for about 2 years and I think only recently I started to understand "when not to use it", and "how to use it properly"Glad to hear I'm not alone in this dilemma. Can you share your epiphanies with me?Its just that some people in here make it look so damn easy and stunningly captivating!would like the idea of a true 35/2 & 85/1.8 combo. (not really sure here)personally i always find "35 F2 set up" to be overrated, what is wrong with F2.8? 17-55 F2.8 is pretty much four F2.8 USM primes in one body - 28 F2.8, 35 F2.8, 50 F2.8, 85 F2.8, and has IS!!I dunno really. Personal preference perhaps, because I started with a 85/1.8 and fell in love with primes. I just can easily see and frame with one FL than pre-seeing the shot and adjusting the FL suited for it. Does it make sense? The ironic thing is, about 60% of my shallow DOF shots with the 35/2 were f/2.8, go figure. In addition, the 17-55 is too expensive for me right now even in the foreseeable futurewhy I don't love this idea:would terribly miss the gorgeous 3" screen on the back of the T1iyeah, it is a big issue for me too, I frequently use a friend's 1Ds2, the onlything you can accurately tell from the LCD play back is framing.HELL YEAH!it's6 years old, which is 13 in camera years IMO. Is it very risky using a 6 year old camera?5D was not a pro grade camera, its shutter mechanism and body are not top quality. I know someone whose 5D's mirror had fallen off after about 4 years. personally I would not buy a used 5DI - you can not really get a bargain price because too many people want them so the used price is always (in my view) too high.even with the mirror fix given by Canon? I do really have to forget about the 5d now.hmmm..CF cards are expensive! aren't they?no, for the same spec they are about the same as SDwould need better lenses than my 35/2 and 85/1.8 (??)although 35f2 and 85 f1.8 are good enough for 5DI, several other EF lenses are more expensive buy optically not better than their EFS counter part, for example 24-70 vs 17-55 IS, 24-105 vs 15-85, 16-35 and 17-40 vs 10-22. that is something to keep in mind.Yes, I find that to be true, mostly based on what people are saying. Moreover, a EF-S 24 or 30mm f/1.8 USM with sharpness/build of 10-22mm would definitely, definitely make me commit long time to crop sensors.for what its worth, I also would love to get a FF body, I love the idea of having 2 bodies which effectively doubles my lens collection. but I would not buy a second hand one, I believe just like 55 inch TVs, FF cameras will fall in price.You do make a lot of sense my friend. Here's to hoping 5d prices goes down to 600-750 range in the near, NEAR futureThanks so much for giving good opinions and insights. Happy shooting!

bakez04wrote:While I'd sooo love to upgrade, there's really no budget for it. It was designed so the sale equals the purchase + / -50 bucks for shipping costs. Plus, I'm so skill-deficient right now, last thing I'd need are new features to play withthere is no simple answer here, while it is true that you better get better with what you got before getting better gear, 550D and 60D has better image quality than 500D.Cost, perhaps? Its so expensive once you get to the sharpness levels of 70-200/4 or 10-22mm but at apertures of about 2.8 and lower. Especially with wide-normal FLs. And I'd much rather go full manual focus lenses only than deal with third party focusing issues (just my preference though).I may be wrong on this, but i personally think old manual lenses' sharpness is overrated, lens design and production is a forward moving technology too, albeit not as fast as electronic technology. over the last few years we had some unprecedented sharp lenses for their class, such as 70-200 F4 IS and 18-55 IS. as a hobbyist I look around photos on the net like most hobbyist do, I have to say I do not remember ever seeing a razor sharp photo made by a canon DSLr and a old manual lens that made me wow.Glad to hear I'm not alone in this dilemma. Can you share your epiphanies with me?Its just that some people in here make it look so damn easy and stunningly captivating!it is difficult to explain all of it, and I am sure that I am not (even close!) a master of UWA. but basically my rules are:1, dont use UWA for landscape, it is very hard to make it look good, stick to 24mm or more.2, when use UWA on people, make sure face is at the centre of the frame because there has the least distortion, let legs extend to lower half of the frame, it makes them look longer, ladies like that.3, with point 2, avoid stretch foot too long,4, when shooting interior, make sure camera is perfect level, some times I use live view to check5, use software to correct undesirable distortion in post, to make the image look more aesthetically pleasing.I dunno really. Personal preference perhaps, because I started with a 85/1.8 and fell in love with primes. I just can easily see and frame with one FL than pre-seeing the shot and adjusting the FL suited for it. Does it make sense? The ironic thing is, about 60% of my shallow DOF shots with the 35/2 were f/2.8, go figure. In addition, the 17-55 is too expensive for me right now even in the foreseeable futureI had agonised over the price of 17-55 for a long time too, i recently bought it for 1360 NZD, which is roughly 950-1000 USD. I always compared it to mid-level primes, such as 50 F1.4 and 85 F1.8, but then I though, for the price of 17-55 i can only buy 2 mid-level primes, and one of them will not have ring USM, and neither would have IS... so when i looked at it that way, I decided that 17-55 was not too bad.But something has to give, I havent bought a new graphics card since I started photography.. LOLeven with the mirror fix given by Canon? I do really have to forget about the 5d now.hmmm..This person did not have it fixed by canon, maybe she thought canon charges too much. she got another friend of mine to glue it back on. I think expensive cameras as expensive cars - if you cant afford buying them new, you cant afford maintain them old.Thanks so much for giving good opinions and insights. Happy shooting!you are welcome.

ultimitsuwrote:This person did not have it fixed by canon, maybe she thought canon charges too much.Per Canon - the fix will be performed regardless of warranty status: http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/news/eos_5d_mirror_repair.doMay only apply to specific serial numbers.

Roonal_Zwrote:ultimitsuwrote:This person did not have it fixed by canon, maybe she thought canon charges too much.Per Canon - the fix will be performed regardless of warranty status: http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/news/eos_5d_mirror_repair.doMay only apply to specific serial numbers.Applies to all 5D cameras.

I just want to comment on your assumption that you will se a huge jump in IQ.When I first bought my 5D I did a head to head comparison with my lowly 300D. I shot under ideal copnrtidrtions with the same lens (70-200 f4) and adjusted the focal length to get the same field of view. I then printed both to 12x18 and showed them to my wife. She could not tell the difference. Sure I could point out a couple of places where an expert eye could differences and under 10 x magnification there were some differences, but there was not a huge difference in IQ. You can see the results athttp://www.pbase.com/jcassatt/canon_5d_vs_300dWhere there is a significant difference is at high ISO. I figure that my 5D is 1.5 stops better than my 40D. But then my new 5D MKII is about 1.5 stops better than my 5D (ISO 3200 is really nice on the MKLII)BTW you can buy a refubrished 5D MKII at the Canon store for $2,000.

Olga Johnsonwrote:Roonal_Zwrote:ultimitsuwrote:This person did not have it fixed by canon, maybe she thought canon charges too much.Per Canon - the fix will be performed regardless of warranty status: http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/news/eos_5d_mirror_repair.doMay only apply to specific serial numbers.Applies to all 5D cameras.right! obviously she never knew this, it pays to google your problems doesnt it?

Hi,your problem apparently has two parts, you admire 5D and you are disappointed with the 10-22.Here are my 2cents:As to 5d. It is an impressive camera, I tried, but I believe (without making thorough tests) that modern xxxD or xxD sensors are at least on par in high ISO now. All this FF fever reminded me the times, pro's said that 35mm format is for noobs, the only right one is 6x6cm film and you never can achieve quality printable pic with 35 mm. Everyone here was in rush for Yashica or Pentacon Six TL.As to 10-22, I have LOT OF FUN with it, so I am sorry to hear it. My approach is far from sophisticated, but if you hold it straight on target or maintain a big headroom for straightening and respective crop , where is the problem ? Of course all subjects on the borders are distorted; when people, that's bad or funny, when building, who cares ? Just be prepared to correct it.Consider to include more of foreground than background and you will see the beauty. Or try to include 2/3 of cloudy sky and few land....

ultimitsuwrote:Olga Johnsonwrote:Roonal_Zwrote:ultimitsuwrote:This person did not have it fixed by canon, maybe she thought canon charges too much.Per Canon - the fix will be performed regardless of warranty status: http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/news/eos_5d_mirror_repair.doMay only apply to specific serial numbers.Applies to all 5D cameras.right! obviously she never knew this, it pays to google your problems doesnt it?OR post it here.

Jim Cassattwrote:I just want to comment on your assumption that you will se a huge jump in IQ.When I first bought my 5D I did a head to head comparison with my lowly 300D. I shot under ideal copnrtidrtions with the same lens (70-200 f4) and adjusted the focal length to get the same field of view. I then printed both to 12x18 and showed them to my wife. She could not tell the difference. Sure I could point out a couple of places where an expert eye could differences and under 10 x magnification there were some differences, but there was not a huge difference in IQ. You can see the results athttp://www.pbase.com/jcassatt/canon_5d_vs_300dI can't even tell any difference there. That's a good example. II would have loved to see a direct comparison on an equivalent shallow DOF image, although I don't think I can see much difference there either.Where there is a significant difference is at high ISO. I figure that my 5D is 1.5 stops better than my 40D. But then my new 5D MKII is about 1.5 stops better than my 5D (ISO 3200 is really nice on the MKLII)That's what I'm talking about! I constantly push my t1i at 1600-3200 so I think I would benefit from better high ISO performance. And after everyone telling me that newer cameras almost compares to the 5d's performance, the classic's not looking that promising anymore.BTW you can buy a refubrished 5D MKII at the Canon store for $2,000.I wish! but a man can dream, right?Thanks for taking the time.

guinness2wrote:Hi,your problem apparently has two parts, you admire 5D and you are disappointed with the 10-22.I'm disappointed alright. But with myself, not the lens. It just seems like I can't justify this lens at the moment. Maybe get rid of it before I totally fall in love with it? lol.Here are my 2cents:As to 5d. It is an impressive camera, I tried, but I believe (without making thorough tests) that modern xxxD or xxD sensors are at least on par in high ISO now. All this FF fever reminded me the times, pro's said that 35mm format is for noobs, the only right one is 6x6cm film and you never can achieve quality printable pic with 35 mm. Everyone here was in rush for Yashica or Pentacon Six TL.I'd love to see the day when we'll be reminiscing of the times when FF was the craze and crop sensors are the shiznit!As to 10-22, I have LOT OF FUN with it, so I am sorry to hear it. My approach is far from sophisticated, but if you hold it straight on target or maintain a big headroom for straightening and respective crop , where is the problem ? Of course all subjects on the borders are distorted; when people, that's bad or funny,I almost often get people on the borders and that irks me when I see it. But I think that can be avoided through practice, and a bit more awareness when using 15mm and below.when building, who cares ? Just be prepared to correct it.Yeah, I totally agree. I always correct based on what I think looks fine.Consider to include more of foreground than background and you will see the beauty. Or try to include 2/3 of cloudy sky and few land....Just tried this and I cant believe how big of a difference it makes. Thanks a lot! Always appreciated your help. -- I rejoice in keeping my mind open to pursue the simple, attainable things that are also the greatest. Cheers!

ultimitsuwrote:there is no simple answer here, while it is true that you better get better with what you got before getting better gear, 550D and 60D has better image quality than 500D.all 4 of the better word really drove it home. I have to get better no matter what I do! LOLI may be wrong on this, but i personally think old manual lenses' sharpness is overrated, lens design and production is a forward moving technology too, albeit not as fast as electronic technology. over the last few years we had some unprecedented sharp lenses for their class, such as 70-200 F4 IS and 18-55 IS. as a hobbyist I look around photos on the net like most hobbyist do, I have to say I do not remember ever seeing a razor sharp photo made by a canon DSLr and a old manual lens that made me wow.Its highly likely that you are right. Especially when we're very spoiled with lightning fast and silent USM focusing. I've seen some, then again, they're done with highly competent even amazing photographers (unfortunately, I can't remember where) more so with c/y zeiss glass.it is difficult to explain all of it, and I am sure that I am not (even close!) a master of UWA. but basically my rules are:1, dont use UWA for landscape, it is very hard to make it look good, stick to 24mm or more.2, when use UWA on people, make sure face is at the centre of the frame because there has the least distortion, let legs extend to lower half of the frame, it makes them look longer, ladies like that.3, with point 2, avoid stretch foot too long,4, when shooting interior, make sure camera is perfect level, some times I use live view to check5, use software to correct undesirable distortion in post, to make the image look more aesthetically pleasing.Really valuable tips, esp. that "longer looking legs for ladies part". thanks for sharing them!I had agonised over the price of 17-55 for a long time too, i recently bought it for 1360 NZD, which is roughly 950-1000 USD. I always compared it to mid-level primes, such as 50 F1.4 and 85 F1.8, but then I though, for the price of 17-55 i can only buy 2 mid-level primes, and one of them will not have ring USM, and neither would have IS... so when i looked at it that way, I decided that 17-55 was not too bad.Personally, I found that relying on IS for people pictures is a bit risky. You're always counting on them to stay put. I tend to go with bit higher SS anyway, although I haven't really gone through a thorough battery of tests.But something has to give, I havent bought a new graphics card since I started photography.. LOLHaha! I'll raise a drink to that!

Obviously, I can't think of a witty title either, but my sense is that with a technology that has been (note I said has been rather than is) evolving as fast as DSLR technology, it doesn't often make sense to buy backwards two or three generations.I think there might be aspects of a 5D that will please you, but many more won't, including the clunky user interface, its weight, its small, dark, low-resolution LCD screen, and so on, and I agree with the other posters that most of the time you won't see a big increase in IQ.My own opinion is that the best upgrade for you would be a 60D. And you might want to consider keeping the 500D as a backup. I think the 550D probably has hurt its resale value. As for the 10-22 lens, I have one too, and it really does make an interesting sky look stunning, but I also don't often need 10 mm; 16 mm or so often is enough to do that. There are a few occasions when I'm really happy to have 10 mm but not many. The good news is that you can get most of what you paid for it if you sell it, and then if you miss it, you can buy another one at a small or no loss, or one of the 2nd party lenses that are almost as good for less money.Why don't you borrow or rent a 5D for a few days?FF

bakez04wrote:imqqmiwrote:Sounds to me like you need some more practice with the 10-22Have you tried some fun portraits with the 10-22?You bet I do! I feel like a total newb when looking at my pictures from this lens. Its like its the first time I've ever used a dslr. Now that you mention it, I haven't tried it with people that much yet. I don't like the distortions it creates, but I'd love to find ways to use it for people shots.I fell in love with the 10-22 when I first got it If you haven't found this one already, it might help a little: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=36100981I don't see much point in getting the old 5D, that's why I've opted for a 7D after all. I've considered the 5D mk II but it would cost me much more to have the same lens line up compared to a crop body. That's what holding me back.The only thing that makes me want it is price+FF+viewfinder+color rendering (only from what I've seen and read though). Really? didn't realize you considered a FF. I've always thought of you as the long reach, trusty AF kinda guy so a 7d was a no brainer for you.I've seen what a 5D + 135mm f/2L could do, that's a dream comboBut after some deliberation a crop body suits me better.The 5D is old technology, you may not see much improvement in noise. It does resolve color slightly better though.I thought noise is significantly manageable in FF? the ISO 1600 feels like 800 kind of noise..Kind of, but do realize the 7D has a 1 stop advantage over the previous generation of cameras as well. 3200 iso on 7D seems like 1600 iso on 40D for example, except the 7D is more susceptible to vertical banding.I'd invest in other/better lenses if that is what's holding you back. Otherwise I'd put my money into improving your skills. A vacation with nice scenery/street candids etc. Courses, a photo club.Oh no, nothing more to invest. That plan was made so that the sale equals out the purchase. Nothing's really holding me back per se, its just that the allure of FF seems irresistible. Although, I signed up for the flashbus tour (strobist and mcnally) when they pass here in April so I'm totally pumped up for that! There are inexhaustible scenery/candids just in DC, so I'm pretty much covered for at least the next two years.Sounds fun! I wish such a bus rides in Europe.I shoot wildlife so the 1.6 crop factor comes in handy. Also good for candidsThe 5D is bulky and heavy, especially with good quality glass like the 16-35 or 24-70L.Thought so too.The viewfinder in the 5D is huge indeed, and bright but you'd still need a split prism focusing screen to get the most out of manual focus lenses. It doesn't have LV as you say so you can't AF that way.bummer. I thought all I needed was a nice and bright VF. don't want to go through all the hassle of that, I've read some horror stories of people messing up their VF because of focusing screens.They are pretty easy to replace though, or at least on the 40D. I've replaced the standard one with an EF-S type focusing screen that more readily shows lens blur and a shallower DOF. The 7D needs to undo 2 screws I think. With the proper tools it's a cinch. With the original EF-S kit comes a tool that allows you to do it all without touching the screens with your bare hands.CF cards are cheaper per gigabyte than SD cards. I got a 32GB card 400x speed for 70 euro. Check what size the 5D can take though. The 5D doesn't need a fast card either, a 133x would be plenty fast enough.You may have to get a couple of new batteries for it.The 5D doesn't have picture styles for good or worse. And a tiny screen.5D doesn't take EF-S lensesBut alas we seldom listen to reasonIf you feel you want the 5D then just get one. It may give you a new incentive/spark to go out and play with your camera gear and improve your skills. Sometimes it's just as simple as that.Haha! I wish! this time, budget dictates reason. If its not justifiable at all, I wouldn't go through with it. That's also why the 10-22mm doubts came along.Well justification is a stretchable thing really, you can bend it to your willOr the 10-22 will bend your subjectThanks for your insights man, I've always valued it in high regard. Cheers mate!My pleasure! Cheers!