pybokeh wrote:SoCalAngler wrote:pybokeh wrote:Hi skyrunr, because I am new to dpreview, I can't reply to your private message. So if you don't mind, I'd like to reply here.I have the 70-300mm "G" AF-S lens, not AF-P. Regardless, this AF-C autofocus hunting issue isn't a lens issue, I think it is inherent with Z5 and possibly other Z bodies. I am experiencing this even with my Nikon Z fast prime lenses.Basically, what I am experiencing is regardless of the lens or at least with the lenses that I have in my possession, when shooting with small apertures say > f4, the autofocus hunts severely when using single point and also dynamic AF-C modes. I am a long time DSLR shooter and I can say without a doubt, none of my Nikon DSLRs exhibit this behavior and what I mean is, AF hunting that negatively correlates with aperture size (the smaller the aperture, the greater the intensity of AF hunting).I think it has something to do with the fact that the Z bodies stop down to the actual aperture that you set to (well up to f5.6) in real time, whereas in contrast, the DSLRs don't stop down the aperture until at shutter time.This issue or inherent autofocusing "quirk" is easily replicated (you'll need to have fast prime or zoom lenses as you need wide apertures). Just set your autofocus mode to AF-C, single point. Then set your aperture of your lens to wide open and just observe or even hear the AF motor of the lens you're using when you activate your autofocus ( I use the back button for AF activation ). Now set your aperture to something like f5.6 or like f8), you will see dramatic increase or intensity of autofocus hunting. For me, it was like night and day difference. Just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I put my 70-300mm lens back onto my D700 and it hardly autofocus hunts in single point or 3D tracking AF-C mode.This really doesn't impact me since I am a "wide open" shooter. I just happen to notice or experience this issue when I decided to try out my F-mount, slow 70-300mm AF-S lens at 300mm, which as we know, at this focal length, it will stop down to f5.6 as its widest aperture. That's when I was blown away by how intense the autofocus hunting was.I would probably be concerned if I regularly have a need to shoot in AF-C mode with small apertures or if I'm stuck with slow zoom lenses.EDIT: FWIW, I do have the latest firmware installed.I have been using a Z5 for 18 months nowI rarely have focusing hunting issues in most situations regardless of selected aperture provided:a)The subject fills the focus area, though if the subject is brighter than the background I usually don't get hunting.b)There is sufficient contrast in the in the subject.c)There is some sort of detail across the horizontal axis (vertical or angled things). With Z mirrorless we don't have the cross type sensors that the DSLRS had in their central areas. Where there is not much vertical detail in the focus box I can often get my Z5 to focus by tilting it slightly or changing to portrait orientation.d)With telephotos lenses it helps to pre-focus manually at roughly expected subject distance.e)Set exposure (aperture and shutter speed) parameters in combination with ISO so that you have bright image (in Manual mode meter is on zero to +/- 1 EV if spot metering. Sometimes I can still get quick focus on dimmer subjects if there is still good contrast and detail, but if the target is brighter in the EVF/Monitor focus tends to be quicker with less hunting.f) in really low light consider turning #D7g) in really low light AF-S focuses faster (low light af kicks in if enabled)Right now, in my office which is lit by an open window with closed translucent curtain and overcast day I can see the difference in focus performance with changes to camera settings. I happen to have a Z 24-120 F/4 lens on. There are two ball caps on a hat rack about 10 feet from me. One is all olive, with no decorations and almost no contrast - the only detail is the stitching. The other is red and white with a multicolored fish embroidered on it (lots of detail, variable contrast across different areas of the hat). I have the lens zoomed to 120mm. AF-C and Dynamic Area. Manual exposure set to F22 and shutter speed to 30" and ISO 100 (meter shows 2+ stop under exposed but its worse than that - meter bar is blinking). If I manually throw the lens way out of focus it slides to focus on the red white hat if the shutter speed is slow enough and/or ISO is high enough and the center box of the dynamic area is on some detail of the fish or the sharp red to white transition. If its just on an all red or all white portion of the hat it hunts (no detail or contrast). It just hunts endlessly on the olive hat. Even if I manually focus on the olive hat first it will still hunt. If I switch to Wide-Area small, it picks up more detail and contrast changes in the red/white hat and focuses faster on the red hat (larger focus box picks up more detail and contrast), but still hunts on the olive hat. If I change to different combinations of shutter speed, aperture, and ISO I can see differences in focus behavior. I cant slow the shutter speed without going to Bulb but I can open the aperture or increase ISO while reducing shutter speed (I dont want to wait 30"), which can result in faster focus acquisition as long as I have detail and contrast under the focus box.I have the AF-P 70-300E and had the AF-A 70-300G (which I have since sold). The AF-P focuses faster but while learning the Z focus system I also used the AF-S 70-300G version in AF-C with Dynamic area at still had it snap quickly to focus provided the hummingbird filled the central focus area box , and shooting at 1/2000 sec and f/8, had the ISO up enough to have a sufficiently exposed and bright image. Depending on light, ISO was between 800 and 2000. The humming birds had good detail and contrast in the feather detail, so as long as I kept the focus box on the bird the camera/lens didn't hunt. Most of the missed shots were due to me moving the camera or the bird moving out of the larger dynamic area box area.Now that I have typed this, the sun has come out and the room is much brighter and at f/11 in aperture priority and ISO 100 shutter speed is 1.6" (so about between EV 5 and 6). There is now some contrast from a shadow on the olive hat and the stitching is more prominant. The camera focuses quickly on both hats.Have you tried testing by comparing autofocus hunting at large apertures versus small apertures when autofocusing onsamesubject? That is how I establish a baseline so that I am comparing apples with apples. So your premise on type of subject, detail across horizontal axis, contrast, etc is sort of moot point if I am testing onsamesubject. For me the autofocus hunting definitely hunts more with smaller apertures. This behavior does not occur with any of my DSLRs and again it is because of how the Z bodies actually stop down to the apertures in real time instead of at shutter activation time.I just did try this. Z5 with 35 1.8 stopped down to f/5.6. Dim evening light with low lights inside.  Afc single did hunt a tiny bit. It did find focus. I would describe it more like slow focus. The items to focus on are similar distance away and fairly good contrast. Hunted kore for things in really low light. I didn’t test for a long distance focus if that matters. There might be some settings that I have different than yours or it’s the s line lens or there is something wrong with your z5. I did a test for wide aperture and narrow too. Didn’t change the results. Mine found focus in both cases and hunted a little in both cases.

pybokeh wrote:Have you tried testing by comparing autofocus hunting at large apertures versus small apertures when autofocusing onsamesubject? That is how I establish a baseline so that I am comparing apples with apples. So your premise on type of subject, detail across horizontal axis, contrast, etc is sort of moot point if I am testing onsamesubject. For me the autofocus hunting definitely hunts more with smaller apertures. This behavior does not occur with any of my DSLRs and again it is because of how the Z bodies actually stop down to the apertures in real time instead of at shutter activation time.SCA's posts is very helpful and on point.I'm done with the Z5, and as others here have done, the other Z's are that much better.  I found the II's Wide (L People) AF mode worth the upgrade alone.  The Z5/Z6/Z7 or Z50 do not offer it.  It even works better than dynamic shooting an air show; as it specifically seems to initiate hunting more quickly.I'm not even that satisfied with my Z7II's responsiveness and buttons coming from a D500.  The II users were supposed to have a FW 2.x out over a year go.  Even the Z9's AF-C and tracking is #3, slightly behind Sony, then Canon.  That should kind of tell you what to expect from a Z5.  I just know that the Z50 and the II's are that much better with AF-C, but still aren't where they should be.I'm happy enough with the Z system to stick with it.  Even having tried the R7 and A7M4.I much prefer the Nikon images once loaded up in Lightroom.I think we're all going to want the gen 3 bodies, and hopefully we won't have to wait a year or more to get our hands on one.

pybokeh wrote:Have you tried testing by comparing autofocus hunting at large apertures versus small apertures when autofocusing onsamesubject? That is how I establish a baseline so that I am comparing apples with apples. So your premise on type of subject, detail across horizontal axis, contrast, etc is sort of moot point if I am testing onsamesubject. For me the autofocus hunting definitely hunts more with smaller apertures. This behavior does not occur with any of my DSLRs and again it is because of how the Z bodies actually stop down to the apertures in real time instead of at shutter activation time.Yes. Same subjects. Tripod mounted camera. Starting at say F/4, moving to smaller aperture, less hunting as shutter speed goes down (maintaining exposure) and ISO up. Even if moving to f/16 or f/22 (focus aperture is f/5.6 here).As long as I keep the image brightness the same (if in Manual mode the meter is at zero or positive), and its not a poor target (lacking detail and contrast), then I see very little difference in hunting.I just went for my evening walk. I often carry a camera. Tonight it was a Z5 with 24-70 f/4. House across the street from me has gray horizontal siding with some vertical and horizontal white trim. Sun has been down for a couple of hours. Some light from a streetlight about 100ft from the house.I'm standing 40 feet from the house.If I point at the part of the house farthest from the light, with no vertical detail, with aperture at f4 shutter speed 30", and ISO 100 the meter is 1/3 EV past 0 (slightly better than -1 EV lighting). If i sort of pre-focus so its close, it hunts several times and takes 2-3 seconds to think it focused. If I manually turn the focus to infinity, it takes a 3-4 seconds and hunts more but it gets there.If I change my target on the house to include a section of vertical white trim, with rough pre-focusing it grabs in less than a second. If manually focus to infinity then it still focuses within a second (so a bit slower) with just a couple of quick adjustments.If I repeat at f/22 the previous two examples without changing ISO ( I can't change shutter here because next value is Bulb), it hunts like crazy and often stops without really achieving anything near focus, even if I target the section with the vertical white trim. If I then bump ISO to 3200 (brightening the image in view finder) I then get the similar results as I did at f/4 and ISO 100 with regard to hunting but it does take longer to slide into focus.This is an extreme example, but I see the same behavior as it gets brighter. To a point. Outside in daylight, even overcast. I don’t have any hunting issues at all except at longer focal lengths if there is a big distance difference between where the lens is focused and where the subject is when initiating acquisition then I may see focus hunting and complete miss in some situations.If I do a similar test and start with a higher ISO and faster shutter speed and f/4, I can get roughly the same focus acquisition performance by when I use a small aperture if I select an appropriately slower shutter speed.My D7100 focus performance on the same target in same light can be better or worse.. It hunts more and misses more if not using one of the cross type sensors. If using a cross type sensor it acquires a bit faster in this low light or typical indoor home lighting. It also tracks more accurately fast moving subjects (like my dog) when in AF-C and Dynamic 9 point AF.So with my Z5 I see that as long as shutter speed, aperture, and ISO will produce a bright image, I don't notice much difference in focus hunting with changing aperture. AF-S seems to focus faster and more accurately in lower to very low light.I do see much greater effect regarding what is under the focus area though (contrast and detail). And lower light often means lower contrast. If I put on an f/2 lens, my fastest, I get quicker focus and even less hunting than with a slower lens.

skyrunr wrote:pybokeh wrote:Have you tried testing by comparing autofocus hunting at large apertures versus small apertures when autofocusing onsamesubject? That is how I establish a baseline so that I am comparing apples with apples. So your premise on type of subject, detail across horizontal axis, contrast, etc is sort of moot point if I am testing onsamesubject. For me the autofocus hunting definitely hunts more with smaller apertures. This behavior does not occur with any of my DSLRs and again it is because of how the Z bodies actually stop down to the apertures in real time instead of at shutter activation time.SCA's posts is very helpful and on point.I'm done with the Z5, and as others here have done, the other Z's are that much better. I found the II's Wide (L People) AF mode worth the upgrade alone. The Z5/Z6/Z7 or Z50 do not offer it. It even works better than dynamic shooting an air show; as it specifically seems to initiate hunting more quickly.I'm not even that satisfied with my Z7II's responsiveness and buttons coming from a D500. The II users were supposed to have a FW 2.x out over a year go. Even the Z9's AF-C and tracking is #3, slightly behind Sony, then Canon. That should kind of tell you what to expect from a Z5. I just know that the Z50 and the II's are that much better with AF-C, but still aren't where they should be.I'm happy enough with the Z system to stick with it. Even having tried the R7 and A7M4.I much prefer the Nikon images once loaded up in Lightroom.I think we're all going to want the gen 3 bodies, and hopefully we won't have to wait a year or more to get our hands on one.As someone who has been shooting DSRLs for several years and used to be semi-pro, I am still quite happy with the Z5.  As stated before, this AF-C hunting at low apertures quirk don't affect me as I am mostly a wide open aperture shooter.  I am sticking with the Z system because I absolutely love the rendering of the Z lenses and what I am getting out of the images.  Nikon will for sure definitely come out with better Z bodies, but in the mean time, I will have captured many memorable pictures.