vbuhay wrote:BrownieVet wrote:Re: This is why I wanted the D850 to have a 24Mpx (36 at most) BSI CMOS sensor - not the 45.7MpxelI havenotread every post, however, after reading your OP and all your responses to posts from others, I can't help but wonder if you know how to use ALL the cameras and lenses in your gear list.I wonder if you are aware of your D850 options of Image Quality and Image Size. In case you have not read your D850 User's Manual, shots below are from that manual.Page 83Page 84Page 88Page 91I assume that you are aware of the effect ofImage AreaandImage SizeonImage Quality. I'll dispense with the pros and cons. I also assume that you are aware that thefactory defaultsetting for DX lens isAuto DX, moreover, you can override that factory setting to use the entire sensor area (FX Full Frame) as well as switching back and forth.I'll not ask you to explain or justifyyour preference for 24 to 36 meg pixel. Instead, am suggesting for you to investigate and experiment with the Image Sizesand theImage Qualityon the above tables.Since you are an engineer, you can easily do a mental calculation of the image pixel count for each options. e.g. FX-Medium (6192 x 4128) =25 meg pixeland FX-1.2X (30 x 20) Large (6880 X 4584) =32 meg pixel.While I do not agree with your logic but it isnotmy business to tell you how you SHOULD use your D850. For me, you do not need to justify how you want to use your D850.I hope this give you another idea to address your concerns...I have read most if not all of that - The size of the pixels in a sensor does not change physically When you change the settings in a camera, it is done through software, and many different "tricks are played to get the output image we see." What I am talking about is that since the size of the Physical Pixel is directly a determinant of the pixel dynamic range and therefore the image dynamic range. If the individual pixel does not have the higher DR, then the Image cannot possible have higher DR, unless it is artificially altered.....A 24Mpx Cmos (D750) sensor will have less DR than a 24Mpx BSI Cmos (A7III) you can Google the reason why...The reason why the D850 BSI Cmos pixels have less DR is because the BSI Pixels pixels in the A7III have LARGER PHYSICAL PIXELS...In addition, if the D850 has 24Mpx, processing the 24Mpx is quicker than 45.7 Mpx and therefore you can get faster FPS without the Battery Grip and a smaller lighter body (with 10 FPS - like the D500 same battery etc.)Why do you think the best Dynamic Range is found in Medium format Cameras???? BECAUSE THEY HAVE LARGER PIXELS ! - YMMVSomebody please let me know where my logic is wrong.Similar logic goes with DX (APS)  vs FX (Full frame)...

anotherMike wrote:Nothing to do with it. I've taken similar shots to that one with a D2X and the 200/2G.It's the lighting and the lens, not the camera body.Frankly I'm amazed you even begun to think the body mattered at all in this case.-mI am talking abut the Sensor  NOT the body, I like the D850 Body - one of the reason I bought it....

vbuhay wrote:[Snip]I have read most if not all of that - The size of the pixels in a sensor does not change physically When you change the settings in a camera, it is done through software, and many different "tricks are played to get the output image we see." What I am talking about is that since the size of the Physical Pixel is directly a determinant of the pixel dynamic range and therefore the image dynamic range. If the individual pixel does not have the higher DR, then the Image cannot possible have higher DR, unless it is artificially altered.....A 24Mpx Cmos (D750) sensor will have less DR than a 24Mpx BSI Cmos (A7III) you can Google the reason why...The reason why the D850 BSI Cmos pixels have less DR is because the BSI Pixels pixels in the A7III have LARGER PHYSICAL PIXELS...In addition, if the D850 has 24Mpx, processing the 24Mpx is quicker than 45.7 Mpx and therefore you can get faster FPS without the Battery Grip and a smaller lighter body (with 10 FPS - like the D500 same battery etc.)Why do you think the best Dynamic Range is found in Medium format Cameras???? BECAUSE THEY HAVE LARGER PIXELS ! - YMMVSomebody please let me know where my logic is wrong.Dynamic range is not simply a matter of pixel size. If you are serious about this you might want to post a query in photographic science and technology forum and get the experts to describe.You might want to explain the dynamic range difference (possibly of no significance since the cameras have essentially the same dynamic range) for your cameras of choice as Illustrated in the dxo graphs in this post above.https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61228385

The camera body, including sensor within, had nothing to do with what you perceive to be image quality in the original shot you posted. I've done nearly the same shot with a D2X (far less dynamic range) but with a similar grade lens (the 200/2G instead of the 200/2 AIS). The qualities of that shot are due to lighting, lens, and aperture choice. That's it. It really is that basic. What's more, the dynamic range of that scene is *nowhere* near the dynamic range of any current DSLR made within the last several years.You could shot that shot with a body 5 years from now with (say) an extra 2 stops of DR, and if you used a lessor quality lens, wouldn't get as good a shot. That shot is not a technically difficult challenge as it is lit, for any even remotely modern sensor. The qualities of the lens and lighting are by far, substantially so, the reason for the look of that image.This might be an entirely different discussion if the scene was something that actually pushed the edges of the DR capabilities of the cameras being discussed, but it doesn't.Frankly, unless you are making a living as a dance/theater/concert shooter working in low light exclusively, or as a sports professional working at high ISO requiring high frame rates exclusively, the modern bodies offered today are pretty amazing and more similar in terms of the potential of output quality than they are different. Photographer skill, use of excellent (as opposed to just "very good") lenses and quality of post processing will make vastly more difference than the sensor differences these days.And that is that.-m

vbuhay wrote:BrownieVet wrote:Re: This is why I wanted the D850 to have a 24Mpx (36 at most) BSI CMOS sensor - not the 45.7MpxelI havenotread every post, however, after reading your OP and all your responses to posts from others, I can't help but wonder if you know how to use ALL the cameras and lenses in your gear list.I wonder if you are aware of your D850 options of Image Quality and Image Size. In case you have not read your D850 User's Manual, shots below are from that manual.Page 83Page 84Page 88Page 91I assume that you are aware of the effect ofImage AreaandImage SizeonImage Quality. I'll dispense with the pros and cons. I also assume that you are aware that thefactory defaultsetting for DX lens isAuto DX, moreover, you can override that factory setting to use the entire sensor area (FX Full Frame) as well as switching back and forth.I'll not ask you to explain or justifyyour preference for 24 to 36 meg pixel. Instead, am suggesting for you to investigate and experiment with the Image Sizesand theImage Qualityon the above tables.Since you are an engineer, you can easily do a mental calculation of the image pixel count for each options. e.g. FX-Medium (6192 x 4128) =25 meg pixeland FX-1.2X (30 x 20) Large (6880 X 4584) =32 meg pixel.While I do not agree with your logic but it isnotmy business to tell you how you SHOULD use your D850. For me, you do not need to justify how you want to use your D850.I hope this give you another idea to address your concerns...I have read most if not all of that - The size of the pixels in a sensor does not change physically When you change the settings in a camera, it is done through software, and many different "tricks are played to get the output image we see." What I am talking about is that since the size of the Physical Pixel is directly a determinant of the pixel dynamic range and therefore the image dynamic range. If the individual pixel does not have the higher DR, then the Image cannot possible have higher DR, unless it is artificially altered.....A 24Mpx Cmos (D750) sensor will have less DR than a 24Mpx BSI Cmos (A7III) you can Google the reason why...The reason why the D850 BSI Cmos pixels have less DR is because the BSI Pixels pixels in the A7III have LARGER PHYSICAL PIXELS...In addition, if the D850 has 24Mpx, processing the 24Mpx is quicker than 45.7 Mpx and therefore you can get faster FPS without the Battery Grip and a smaller lighter body (with 10 FPS - like the D500 same battery etc.)Why do you think the best Dynamic Range is found in Medium format Cameras???? BECAUSE THEY HAVE LARGER PIXELS ! - YMMVSomebody please let me know where my logic is wrong...personally, I do not think you are wrong....everyone seems to want/desire larger sensors/pixels....for me, I just want/desire a camera that works well....Cheers..

..if you want to see some great colours straight from the camera....then you may consider taking a look at the D7500....this 'blacksheep' in the Nikon line of cameras, produces beautiful pictures....the below images was extracted from Raw Nef files, full sized, not post processed....the D7500 Picture Control was set to 'Auto', which is a new feature....and the D500 does not have it....however, the D850 does....D7500, image extracted from Raw Nef.....D7500, image extracted from Raw Nef....D7500, image extracted from Raw Nef....go ahead and pixel peep....Cheers..

No text.

tony field wrote:vbuhay wrote:hacked hacked hacked  - - - all the b.s.Somebody please let me know where my logic is wrong.Tony Field's quote of Charles Darwin is just DID! - - - see below.Dynamic range is not simply a matter of pixel size. If you are serious about this you might want to post a query in photographic science and technology forum and get the experts to describe.You might want to explain the dynamic range difference (possibly of no significance since the cameras have essentially the same dynamic range) for your cameras of choice as Illustrated in the dxo graphs in this post above.https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61228385

vbuhay wrote:anotherMike wrote:Nothing to do with it. I've taken similar shots to that one with a D2X and the 200/2G.It's the lighting and the lens, not the camera body.Frankly I'm amazed you even begun to think the body mattered at all in this case.-mI am talking abut theSensorNOT the body, I like the D850 Body -one of the reason I bought it....So why complain about the pixel count of the D850 sensor?

jshen808 wrote:..if you want to see some great colours straight from the camera....then you may consider taking a look at the D7500....this 'blacksheep' in the Nikon line of cameras, produces beautiful pictures....the below images was extracted from Raw Nef files, full sized, not post processed....the D7500 Picture Control was set to 'Auto', which is a new feature....and the D500 does not have it....however, the D850 does....D7500, image extracted from Raw Nef.....D7500, image extracted from Raw Nef....D7500, image extracted from Raw Nef....go ahead and pixel peep....Cheers..And here are two UNEDITED OOC JPEG candid snap shots from a mid-level Nikon D5300 with DX 18-140mm kit lens. No special set-up. Light source is one hot shoe mounted Godox V860 fitted with head diffuser. Head pointed to the ceiling for bounce effect.

The poster of the first post seems to think that the photo was made possible by the camera alone, so he should get that camera, because the higher pixel count of the D850 surely makes no difference for it. So if you want the better manual focus peeking of the Sony, you need to get one. If you think it takes your photography to the next level, go ahead, never look back.

BrownieVet wrote:vbuhay wrote:anotherMike wrote:Nothing to do with it. I've taken similar shots to that one with a D2X and the 200/2G.It's the lighting and the lens, not the camera body.Frankly I'm amazed you even begun to think the body mattered at all in this case.-mI am talking abut theSensorNOT the body, I like the D850 Body -one of the reason I bought it....So why complain about the pixel count of the D850 sensor?The higher the pixel count, the smaller the pixels. The smaller the pixels the lower the Dynamic Range.....

vbuhay wrote:What I am talking about is that since the size of the Physical Pixel is directly a determinant of the pixel dynamic range and therefore the image dynamic range. If the individual pixel does not have the higher DR, then the Image cannot possible have higher DR, unless it is artificially altered.....That's pure bunk.A 24Mpx Cmos (D750) sensor will have less DR than a 24Mpx BSI Cmos (A7III) you can Google the reason why...The reason is that the A7m3 sensor has a dual gain that kicks in after ISO 400, and up to ISO 400 they are in fact practically the same.Seehere.The reason why the D850 BSI Cmos pixels have less DR is because the BSI Pixels pixels in the A7III have LARGER PHYSICAL PIXELS...You don't know what you're talking about.Seehere.In addition, if the D850 has 24Mpx, processing the 24Mpx is quicker than 45.7 Mpx and therefore you can get faster FPS without the Battery Grip and a smaller lighter body (with 10 FPS - like the D500 same battery etc.)Wrong again. If the file size is the issue then it will show up as a reduced buffer size and not as reduced fps. The larger mirror is the issue.Why do you think the best Dynamic Range is found in Medium format Cameras???? BECAUSE THEY HAVE LARGER PIXELS ! -YMMVNo, it's because the sensor itself is larger.Somebody please let me know where my logic is wrong.Everywhere starting from the notion that it's the pixel size that determines the overall DR of the sensor.

BrownieVet wrote:jshen808 wrote:..if you want to see some great colours straight from the camera....then you may consider taking a look at the D7500....this 'blacksheep' in the Nikon line of cameras, produces beautiful pictures....the below images was extracted from Raw Nef files, full sized, not post processed....the D7500 Picture Control was set to 'Auto', which is a new feature....and the D500 does not have it....however, the D850 does....D7500, image extracted from Raw Nef..Nice snap shot, but this is exactly what I am talking about Dynamic Range- her right side forehead and her chest is too as well as the girl in the back's back is overexpose from the intense sun. Over all it is property expose,  with the "better sensor" you ought to have no areas of over exposure.......D7500, image extracted from Raw Nef..Second picture the only area of over exposure is the girls antenna being over exposed......D7500, image extracted from Raw Nef..Third picture it seem all of the white clothings are all over exposed (No details)....other than that its a snapshot.....go ahead and pixel peep....Cheers..And here are two UNEDITED OOC JPEG candid snap shots from a mid-level Nikon D5300 with DX 18-140mm kit lens. No special set-up. Light source is one hot shoe mounted Godox V860 fitted with head diffuser. Head pointed to the ceiling for bounce effect.No comments on the last 2.

vbuhay wrote:The higher the pixel count, the smaller the pixels. The smaller the pixels the lower the Dynamic Range.....You really need to educate yourself about this. You're so wrong it's not even funny, it's just sad.

Tony Beach wrote:vbuhay wrote:What I am talking about is that since the size of the Physical Pixel is directly a determinant of the pixel dynamic range and therefore the image dynamic range. If the individual pixel does not have the higher DR, then the Image cannot possible have higher DR, unless it is artificially altered.....That's pure bunk.A 24Mpx Cmos (D750) sensor will have less DR than a 24Mpx BSI Cmos (A7III) you can Google the reason why...The reason is that the A7m3 sensor has a dual gain that kicks in after ISO 400, and before ISO 400 they are in fact practically the same.Seehere.The reason why the D850 BSI Cmos pixels have less DR is because the BSI Pixels pixels in the A7III have LARGER PHYSICAL PIXELS...You don't know what you're talking about.Seehere.Thanks for that link - so I compared the 7M3 24Mpx vs the D850 45.7Mpx and at every single ISO except ISO 63 and 80, the A7III have higher Photo Dynamic Range...In addition, if the D850 has 24Mpx, processing the 24Mpx is quicker than 45.7 Mpx and therefore you can get faster FPS without the Battery Grip and a smaller lighter body (with 10 FPS - like the D500 same battery etc.)Wrong again. If the file size is the issue then it will show up as a reduced buffer size and not as reduced fps. The larger mirror is the issue.Why do you think the best Dynamic Range is found in Medium format Cameras???? BECAUSE THEY HAVE LARGER PIXELS ! -YMMVNo, it's because the sensor itself is larger.Of course it is larger, which is why they can put 100Mpx in them even at that, in general most of the Medium formats have bigger pixels than Full frame , but not all... I had a list of latest sensors from the Phase One sensors to most of the latest arrange by dynamic range , highest to lowest and the top 4 or 5 are all Medium formats. I am trying to locate it but have not found it yet....I will post when I find it...Somebody please let me know where my logic is wrong.Everywhere starting from the notion that it's the pixel size that determines the overall DR of the sensor.Its not the sole determinant but it is a major factor, i.e.BSI CMOS vs CMOS sensors, CCD vs CMOS, .....others. A BSI CMOS will capture more light than CMOS of the same pixel size....

Tony Beach wrote:vbuhay wrote:The higher the pixel count, the smaller the pixels. The smaller the pixels the lower the Dynamic Range.....You really need to educate yourself about this. You're so wrong it's not even funny, it's just sad.So are you telling me that the pixel size of the D850 (45.7Mpx) is larger that the pixel size of the A7III (24.2Mpx) - both being full frame ? Please explain...

vbuhay wrote:BrownieVet wrote:jshen808 wrote:..if you want to see some great colours straight from the camera....then you may consider taking a look at the D7500....this 'blacksheep' in the Nikon line of cameras, produces beautiful pictures....the below images was extracted from Raw Nef files, full sized, not post processed....the D7500 Picture Control was set to 'Auto', which is a new feature....and the D500 does not have it....however, the D850 does..Nice snap shot, but this is exactly what I am talking about Dynamic Range- her right side forehead and her chest is too as well as the girl in the back's back is overexpose from the intense sun. Over all it is property expose, with the "better sensor" you ought to have no areas of over exposure....Second picture the only area of over exposure is the girls antenna being over exposed....Third picture it seem all of the white clothings are all over exposed (No details)....other than that its a snapshot.....go ahead and pixel peep....Cheers..And here are two UNEDITED OOC JPEG candid snap shots from a mid-level Nikon D5300 with DX 18-140mm kit lens. No special set-up. Light source is one hot shoe mounted Godox V860 fitted with head diffuser. Head pointed to the ceiling for bounce effect.No comments on the last 2...Ahhh, so you're waking up....yes, I do snapshots.. as I don't do portraits (except for families)....you're picky, which is alright.. the images I posted are 'extracted' from Raw with NO post processings whatsoever....the Raw files can be tweaked in post processings, and I'm 100% certain you know that....what you say as 'over-exposed' is really a personal taste, as I like vibrant pictures, and dislike 'under-exposed' looks....below is a zoomed in for a closer look, and to me, looks just fine....screen capture for closer look....Cheers..

Not a Nikon user at the moment, but interested in the forthcoming mirrorless, I check the forum from time to time.I don't understand, why did this silly post get so much attention?

vbuhay wrote:...snip...Somebody please let me know where my logic is wrong.People have been trying to do that throughout the thread