Why is there any angst over Nikon's strategy? If you have a Z camera and lens go use them. Thom is a VERY smart guy but I'd rather see how to's from him than this stuff. This seems a waste of cycles.

HeavyDuty wrote:I think many people haven’t fully realized that a 45 MP camera run in DX mode pretty much equates what most DX bodies can do. The biggest issue here is cost, which is why I believe Nikon needs a Z D500 replacement.For me it is more weight and size.  My Z7II isn't lighter, compact (with an S prime mounted,) or as responsive as a D500.  The Z50 is 80% of what I need, and a more pro approach (more buttons and customization) would make all the difference in the world.

This is really pretty simple. Four years ago at the time of introduction, Z-cosystem customersshould have beencurrent Nikon DSLR owners. Unfortunately Nikon released ham-fisted Z6 and Z7 bodies that were objectively inferior to the DSLRs those potential customers already owned.Meanwhile, Sony was knocking mirrorless out of the park and Canon's first serious entries in that market were quite capable. So, while Nikon fiddled about trying to put lipstick on the Z6/Z7 pigs, their enthusiast and professional DSLR shooters were checking out and sampling Sony and Canon products. A few (landscape and portrait photographers) were even migrating into the Fuji GFX universe.The Z9 was the first mirrorless camera Nikon produced that actually got D6, D5, D850, D500, and many other professional & enthusiast DSLR owners genuinely excited about that platform. Now, we're waiting to see if and what Nikon releases in the form of downmarket products infused with Z9 DNA.If Nikon's next offerings are third gen Z6 and Z7 bodies that have no direct connection to the Z9, all the momentum the introduction of that true flagship body generated will be sucked from the room. If Nikon thinks they can string customers along for another year or longer before opening the goody bag and sharing some Z9 candy with downmarket customers, they're in for a very rude awakening.Nikon should be putting original Z6 and Z7 tech in the rearview. They need a Z...whatever that offers Z9 tech or performance in a downmarket body. It's that simple. Without that product - and more like it in other downmarket systems - their mirrorless lineup is doomed to forever be distant afterthoughts to Sony and Canon.

The Z6 and Z7 presented no obstacles to landscape and event photographers. The major gap in the Z System was and remains Sport and Wildlife photographers, until late 2021, butonlyif they do not want a Z9 for its higher price, Z9-is-too-big criticisms.Leave the Z5 II with affordable Z6 technology and add the EXPEED6 etc. The gapsunderscore the Z90 and "Z6 III" as the 3rd Generation Priorities.Both these cameras are overdue to clinch the support of Hobbyists and Pro's (switchers inclusive), who will invest and meet Nikon's strategic objective [5 year plan refers] of selling average of 2 Z lenses per camera:Almost all the Z lenses have been released4th GenerationBill Ferris wrote:This is really pretty simple. Four years ago at the time of introduction, Z-cosystem customersshould have beencurrent Nikon DSLR owners. Unfortunately Nikon released ham-fisted Z6 and Z7 bodies that were objectively inferior to the DSLRs those potential customers already owned.Meanwhile, Sony was knocking mirrorless out of the park and Canon's first serious entries in that market were quite capable. So, while Nikon fiddled about trying to put lipstick on the Z6/Z7 pigs, their enthusiast and professional DSLR shooters were checking out and sampling Sony and Canon products. A few (landscape and portrait photographers) were even migrating into the Fuji GFX universe.The Z9 was the first mirrorless camera Nikon produced that actually got D6, D5, D850, D500, and many other professional & enthusiast DSLR owners genuinely excited about that platform. Now, we're waiting to see if and what Nikon releases in the form of downmarket products infused with Z9 DNA.If Nikon's next offerings are third gen Z6 and Z7 bodies that have no direct connection to the Z9, all the momentum the introduction of that true flagship body generated will be sucked from the room. If Nikon thinks they can string customers along for another year or longer before opening the goody bag and sharing some Z9 candy with downmarket customers, they're in for a very rude awakening.Nikon should be putting original Z6 and Z7 tech in the rearview. They need a Z...whatever that offers Z9 tech or performance in a downmarket body. It's that simple. Without that product - and more like it in other downmarket systems - their mirrorless lineup is doomed to forever be distant afterthoughts to Sony and Canon.

Yes, and it is an entirely logical longterm evolution. Due to better lenses and better films/sensors.From a full size room (camera obscura) with a hole for lens. Via suitcase size bellows camera's, medium format, to "FX", "DX" and smaller.But for now I still like FX, though I often crop to DX or less.

Bill Ferris wrote:This is really pretty simple. Four years ago at the time of introduction, Z-cosystem customersshould have beencurrent Nikon DSLR owners. Unfortunately Nikon released ham-fisted Z6 and Z7 bodies that were objectively inferior to the DSLRs those potential customers already owned.Meanwhile, Sony was knocking mirrorless out of the park and Canon's first serious entries in that market were quite capable. So, while Nikon fiddled about trying to put lipstick on the Z6/Z7 pigs, their enthusiast and professional DSLR shooters were checking out and sampling Sony and Canon products. A few (landscape and portrait photographers) were even migrating into the Fuji GFX universe.The Z9 was the first mirrorless camera Nikon produced that actually got D6, D5, D850, D500, and many other professional & enthusiast DSLR owners genuinely excited about that platform. Now, we're waiting to see if and what Nikon releases in the form of downmarket products infused with Z9 DNA.If Nikon's next offerings are third gen Z6 and Z7 bodies that have no direct connection to the Z9, all the momentum the introduction of that true flagship body generated will be sucked from the room. If Nikon thinks they can string customers along for another year or longer before opening the goody bag and sharing some Z9 candy with downmarket customers, they're in for a very rude awakening.Nikon should be putting original Z6 and Z7 tech in the rearview. They need a Z...whatever that offers Z9 tech or performance in a downmarket body. It's that simple. Without that product - and more like it in other downmarket systems - their mirrorless lineup is doomed to forever be distant afterthoughts to Sony and Canon.I think you’re off base about the Z6 and Z7 series - I realize it’s your opinion, but I’ve rarely felt undergunned with my Z6 after the firmware updates. I suspect more people feel the same as me to one extent or another than agree with you that they were total failures.

ericbowles wrote:The entry level camera market continues to shrink.Camera companies need entry-level models to attract first time camera buyers. That's where future camera enthusiasts come from.

justmeMN wrote:ericbowles wrote:The entry level camera market continues to shrink.Camera companies need entry-level models to attract first time camera buyers. That's where future camera enthusiasts come from.Which is the z5 and similar in the future will exist for nikon. Relatively cheap full frame bodies.

NickZ2016 wrote:archerscreek wrote:Last I saw Fuji sold more mirrorless cameras than Nikon sold mirrorless.Canon claimed the TOTAL camera market for this year would be just over 5 million cameras. Others have lower numbers. That's EVERYTHING: ML, mirror and compacts etc.If Nikon finally shipped 50k Z9 that's 1% of the total market. Most estimates put Fuji at 4% total. DX and MF.I think Nikon expects to sell 700K bodies. There claim is 13% of the market.Canon is back over 40%Sony mid 20%Fuji is mid single digits. 4?Panasonic and whoever is leftPut it in perspective. If Nikon had enough production they might have sold more Z9 than the total Fuji sales.You honestly think Nikon could sell more than 500,000 Z9 cameras? What are you smoking? LolFuji sells around 500,000 mirrorless cameras a year.https://fstoppers.com/business/canon-makes-rapid-gains-mirrorless-camera-sales-556367

justmeMN wrote:ericbowles wrote:The entry level camera market continues to shrink.Camera companies need entry-level models to attract first time camera buyers. That's where future camera enthusiasts come from.Did Nikon ever make a disposable film camera? I can't remember how about a 110 camera? 126?Calendar still claims 2022. The entry level camera is the smartphone. It's not a standalone camera.

Bill Ferris wrote:This is really pretty simple. Four years ago at the time of introduction, Z-cosystem customersshould have beencurrent Nikon DSLR owners. Unfortunately Nikon released ham-fisted Z6 and Z7 bodies that were objectively inferior to the DSLRs those potential customers already owned.Agreed.   For me, shooting a D800e, then D810, then D850, I was looking for a next camera that would either equal or improve on all aspects of performance (that I use, which mostly means not video).Offering me a new camera (Z7) that was inferior to the D850 i was using was a non-starter.  Had Nikon come with a 'Z8' that was an actual improvement on the D850's strengths would have had me buying into the Z system years ago.Just like if Nikon had replaced the D300 with a D400 in a timely manner I would have bought one.  Instead I spent money saved for a D400 on something else and never again went back to DX.The Z9 was the first mirrorless camera Nikon produced that actually got D6, D5, D850, D500, and many other professional & enthusiast DSLR owners genuinely excited about that platform.Certainly true for me.   It seemed the Z9 equaled or exceeded the D850 in virtually every way while minimizing the EVF issues that bother DSLR users like me.Since I always put a grip and big battery on my DSLR's, the Z9 was exactly what I wanted.  Only the pricing held me back, plus the lack of availability.   Lack of availability caused me to not buy the Z9 on several occasions when GAS hit me hard.Eventually I decided to buy one, basically as a 'last camera syndrome' for a user approaching 70 years old.  Buy one now (while I can still carry it) and get the most use of it in the remaining years of my life.Had Nikon released a Z8 in the D850's price range, with optional grip, I certainly would have bought one of those.   But now that I have a Z9, I'm pretty set.   I would now not buy another camera which was not an upgrade on the Z9.Now, we're waiting to see if and what Nikon releases in the form of downmarket products infused with Z9 DNA.As Thom Hogan has noted, sensors are at the root of what Nikon can offer while still making a profit.   I don't know that a stacked sensor like the Z9's is economical enough to put into a Z8-style body, and that would leave too many 45mp models at once anyway.If Nikon's next offerings are third gen Z6 and Z7 bodies that have no direct connection to the Z9, all the momentum the introduction of that true flagship body generated will be sucked from the room. If Nikon thinks they can string customers along for another year or longer before opening the goody bag and sharing some Z9 candy with downmarket customers, they're in for a very rude awakening.I think Nikon can do something that is still appealing without the Z9's sensor tech.  I have no issue with mechanical shutters, but I do have an issue with rolling shutter and slow flash sync speeds.  In other words, another D8xx high-pixel model that is not as fast as the Z9.Nikon should be putting original Z6 and Z7 tech in the rearview. They need a Z...whatever that offers Z9 tech or performance in a downmarket body. It's that simple. Without that product - and more like it in other downmarket systems - their mirrorless lineup is doomed to forever be distant afterthoughts to Sony and Canon."doomed to forever' seems a bit pessimistic.

archerscreek wrote:You honestly think Nikon could sell more than 500,000 Z9 cameras? What are you smoking? Lol50K equals 50000 in most of the world. 3500 a month after 12 months is 42000.Fuji sells around 500,000 mirrorless cameras a year.https://fstoppers.com/business/canon-makes-rapid-gains-mirrorless-camera-sales-556367So less than Nikon. Right?

chambeshi wrote:Thom's Latesthttps://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/who-is-nikons-customer.htmlTo be fair though only Panasonic are offering a FF mirrorless camera that aims to be something close to the D850 in handling.I think on release Nikon were deliberately aiming at a market who wanted something a little smaller than that and indeed I think you see that reflected in a lot of the early lens releases, the F/4 zooms and the F/1.8 primes aimed at people who didnt mind giving up a little in specs but not in quality.The Z9 as well is rather different from previous pro bodies in that resolution wise its not handicapped which you could argue does squeeze the potential market for a Z8 with more D850 like handling and higher resolution a bit.Personally I do suspect we will see a Z8 at some stage though, its more that Nikon's resources are obviously being very tested. I think they saw an opening when it came to mirrorless sport/wildlife shooting were none of their rivals at FF are especially well placed and went all in on chasing that.That maybe explains the lens releases as well focusing on teles were as 85mm and 35mm F/1.2 primes to go with the 50mm do potentially seem well suited to a Z8 release.

chambeshi wrote:The Z6 and Z7 presented no obstacles to landscape and event photographers. The major gap in the Z System was and remains Sport and Wildlife photographers, until late 2021, butonlyif they do not want a Z9 for its higher price, Z9-is-too-big criticisms.Leave the Z5 II with affordable Z6 technology and add the EXPEED6 etc. The gapsunderscore the Z90 and "Z6 III" as the 3rd Generation Priorities.Both these cameras are overdue to clinch the support of Hobbyists and Pro's (switchers inclusive), who will invest and meet Nikon's strategic objective [5 year plan refers] of selling average of 2 Z lenses per camera:Almost all the Z lenses have been released4th GenerationBill Ferris wrote:This is really pretty simple. Four years ago at the time of introduction, Z-cosystem customersshould have beencurrent Nikon DSLR owners. Unfortunately Nikon released ham-fisted Z6 and Z7 bodies that were objectively inferior to the DSLRs those potential customers already owned.I agree - the Z6/Z6ii and Z7/Z7ii are very capable cameras.  Even within fast moving nature and wildlife, they are very capable cameras if you know how to use the technology.  My keeper rates are higher with the Z cameras than with the D850 and D500, but my technique changed.  You can't fight the camera and try to use it without changes in technique.The key innovations are quite recent - the fast dual readout from the sensor to the viewfinder and a faster processor.   The EVF has a small lag, and for very fast unpredictable subjects it makes following a subject difficult.  The dual readout of the Z9 eliminates that issue and the EVF is virtually real time.  The faster processor provides improvements in subject recognition and subject tracking as well as faster processing of focus and images.  None of this was available from any manufacturer four years ago.Nikon's upcoming releases are all about leveraging and reusing what they have in the Z9 - not creating something new.  The stacked sensor with dual readout is important if you want a real time EVF.  The fast processor is required for AF system enhancements.  Shutter less design is required for a fast frame rate and fast readout including pre-capture.  I see these technologies as yes/no decisions - and I don't see any point in developing an alternative approach when these technologies are available.

NickZ2016 wrote:archerscreek wrote:You honestly think Nikon could sell more than 500,000 Z9 cameras? What are you smoking? Lol50K equals 50000 in most of the world. 3500 a month after 12 months is 42000.Fuji sells around 500,000 mirrorless cameras a year.https://fstoppers.com/business/canon-makes-rapid-gains-mirrorless-camera-sales-556367So less than Nikon. Right?No. Fuji’s 500,000 mirrorless cameras is more than Nikon’s 280,000 mirrorless cameras, which Thom Hogan, this thread, and I were talking about. If Nikon sold 50,000 Z9 cameras that would only be 1/10th of the mirrorless cameras Fuji sold. It’s not even close.

ericbowles wrote:chambeshi wrote:The Z6 and Z7 presented no obstacles to landscape and event photographers. The major gap in the Z System was and remains Sport and Wildlife photographers, until late 2021, butonlyif they do not want a Z9 for its higher price, Z9-is-too-big criticisms.Leave the Z5 II with affordable Z6 technology and add the EXPEED6 etc. The gapsunderscore the Z90 and "Z6 III" as the 3rd Generation Priorities.Both these cameras are overdue to clinch the support of Hobbyists and Pro's (switchers inclusive), who will invest and meet Nikon's strategic objective [5 year plan refers] of selling average of 2 Z lenses per camera:Almost all the Z lenses have been releasedClarification #1:DX 26mp BSI stacked in Z90.Stacked is obviously essential to meet high speed specificationsClarification #2: no new sensor is needed, obviously. Persist selling Z6 inventory components in updated Z5Clarification #3: NewFX 30mp BSI stacked, redeploy EXPEED7 in Z6 III4th GenerationThe 4th Generation Zed is likely planned for late 2024 at the earliest, if it's going to happen that soonNikon emphasizes in its Investors Report (2022) they are going to extending Z9 technology into more affordable cameras. The questions are then if this involves different sensors, for which the answer is likely Yes.I agree these sensors must be stacked to attain blackout free EVF, effective Autofocus, and high data output. It is logical to use the 45mp Z9 sensor but carefully not to undercut/eclipse Z9 sales. So will the Z9 sensor only be built into a different camera once the Z9 itself has been upgraded ?Hence, the DX stacked and FX 30mp(?) Stacked sensors are the more likely options, and these cameras are priorities. All leveraging the processing power in the EXPEED7 with Z9 codeI agree - the Z6/Z6ii and Z7/Z7ii are very capable cameras. Even within fast moving nature and wildlife, they are very capable cameras if you know how to use the technology. My keeper rates are higher with the Z cameras than with the D850 and D500, but my technique changed. You can't fight the camera and try to use it without changes in technique.The key innovations are quite recent - the fast dual readout from the sensor to the viewfinder and a faster processor. The EVF has a small lag, and for very fast unpredictable subjects it makes following a subject difficult. The dual readout of the Z9 eliminates that issue and the EVF is virtually real time. The faster processor provides improvements in subject recognition and subject tracking as well as faster processing of focus and images. None of this was available from any manufacturer four years ago.Nikon's upcoming releases are all about leveraging and reusing what they have in the Z9 - not creating something new. The stacked sensor with dual readout is important if you want a real time EVF. The fast processor is required for AF system enhancements. Shutter less design is required for a fast frame rate and fast readout including pre-capture. I see these technologies as yes/no decisions - and I don't see any point in developing an alternative approach when these technologies are available..

ericbowles wrote:chambeshi wrote:The Z6 and Z7 presented no obstacles to landscape and event photographers. The major gap in the Z System was and remains Sport and Wildlife photographers, until late 2021, butonlyif they do not want a Z9 for its higher price, Z9-is-too-big criticisms.Leave the Z5 II with affordable Z6 technology and add the EXPEED6 etc. The gapsunderscore the Z90 and "Z6 III" as the 3rd Generation Priorities.Both these cameras are overdue to clinch the support of Hobbyists and Pro's (switchers inclusive), who will invest and meet Nikon's strategic objective [5 year plan refers] of selling average of 2 Z lenses per camera:Almost all the Z lenses have been released4th GenerationBill Ferris wrote:This is really pretty simple. Four years ago at the time of introduction, Z-cosystem customersshould have beencurrent Nikon DSLR owners. Unfortunately Nikon released ham-fisted Z6 and Z7 bodies that were objectively inferior to the DSLRs those potential customers already owned.I agree - the Z6/Z6ii and Z7/Z7ii are very capable cameras. Even within fast moving nature and wildlife, they are very capable cameras if you know how to use the technology. My keeper rates are higher with the Z cameras than with the D850 and D500, but my technique changed. You can't fight the camera and try to use it without changes in technique.Unfortunately, the publicly accessible data on the number of Z6 and Z7 bodies sold doesn't support a narrative that the Z6/Z7 are considered upgrades or even competent lateral moves by many existing Nikon customers. The serial number ranges documented athttp://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/camera.htmlsuggest roughly 105,000 Z6/Z6II bodies have been sold in the US. That's compared to roughly 224,000 D750s sold in the same market. Approximately 33,000 Z7 bodies have been sold in the US compared to 109,000 D850s. The site shows only a starting serial number for Z7II units shipped to the US.While not terrible numbers, the first and second generation Zs contributed to a continuation of Nikon's declining market share in the digital ILC segment. This trend has at least been slowed by the Z9.Nikon has sold about 33,000 Z9 units in the US in its first year. Roughly 15,000 D5 & D6 bodies have sold here since 2016.The key innovations are quite recent - the fast dual readout from the sensor to the viewfinder and a faster processor. The EVF has a small lag, and for very fast unpredictable subjects it makes following a subject difficult. The dual readout of the Z9 eliminates that issue and the EVF is virtually real time. The faster processor provides improvements in subject recognition and subject tracking as well as faster processing of focus and images. None of this was available from any manufacturer four years ago.Sony A9 (2017) autofocus is excellent, as is the A1 (January 2021).Nikon's upcoming releases are all about leveraging and reusing what they have in the Z9 - not creating something new. The stacked sensor with dual readout is important if you want a real time EVF. The fast processor is required for AF system enhancements. Shutter less design is required for a fast frame rate and fast readout including pre-capture. I see these technologies as yes/no decisions - and I don't see any point in developing an alternative approach when these technologies are available.Let's hope Nikon gets off the stick and starts releasing downmarket products with Z9 DNA in a timely manner.

NickZ2016 wrote:Calendar still claims 2022. The entry level camera is the smartphone. It's not a standalone camera.I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Japan (BCN) entry level cameras dominate camera unit sales.

chambeshi wrote:Thom's Latesthttps://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/who-is-nikons-customer.htmlI agree with most of what he's saying for the FF cameras (don't care about the others).What he's saying is "where is the Z8?" and making it sound catastrophic because it's not already in the shops, unlike CANON's equivalent (the R5 which by the way is selling like hot cakes with my CANON friends). We've been in this situation before. Patience. It will come. And when it does come it will probably exceed our expectations.

Ruby Rod wrote:We all know the world has changed, but probably differ on exactly how. IMO, there's less and less rationale for crop sensors. I spent the entire 13 years I had a D200 waiting to be able to afford a ff sensor camera and never would have bought the D200 if I had the money for ff. The advantages for image quality and narrower DOF really matter. Cropped is good for BIF, but how big is that market really? If they can't/won't fully support crop sensor cameras with a proper lens selection, Nikon should just make the hard decision, discontinue them, and concentrate on ff stuff. I'd rather they did a great job with a narrower product line, than spread themselves too thin.Not everyone wants a FF camera with its weight and bulk. Nikon has had a strong showing in DX in the past, but look at the amount of DX format cameras in the market today. Tremendous competition they are up against. And you can use any F mount lens with an adapter on their Z50 and Zfc, so the lenses are there. I love my Z50 and am traveling with it more often lately for its wonderful small form factor. Image quality is superb!