Leonard Shepherd wrote:Ramon767 wrote:No, EVF lagThere is only EVF lag if you are not "Photographically prepared" without first pressure on the shutter/back button until after the action to be captured has occurredThis is what EVF lag results in on a fast action photo, the delay in seeing where the subject is causes, you to adjust panning to what you see in the viewfinder and the result here has the car with too much space behind and too little in front. A optical viewfinder or perhaps that in the Z9 would not cause this problem. This is part of a sequence so neither of your reasons for not being "Photographically prepared" applyThe delay makes it difficult to get photo's positioned like this below, neither of these shot's are cropped.A bigger problem with the viewfinder is the strobing image between frames causing panning to be difficult to follow. I also use a Olympus EM1X which is far superior in both these cases.

xlucine wrote:Leonard Shepherd wrote:EduPortas wrote:Film can still go head-to-head with the vast majority of sensors out there.If you mean for resolution - are you joking?For resolution, he's right. There are some absurdly high res BW film stocks out there. Stocks like adox CMS ii are packing similar lines/mm as an unbinned smartphone sensor (800 l/mm, so kind of like 0.625um pixels), so long as you use the right developer.My point is Smartphones do not have the resolution capability of high end ML.

cosmicnode wrote:on the shutter/back button until after the action to be captured has occurredThis is what EVF lag results in on a fast action photo, the delay in seeing where the subject is causes, you to adjust panning to what you see in the viewfinder and the result here has the car with too much space behind and too little in front.Surely you are discussing a "poor technique" challenge.With DSLR's you had the same issue - learning to account for the slight delay between the shutter being pressed, the mirror rising and the image then being taken.A optical viewfinder or perhaps that in the Z9 would not cause this problem. This is part of a sequence so neither of your reasons for not being "Photographically prepared" applyAn optically viewfinder would be nothing like as bright as a Z9 - by many stops, would not show white balance settings - and you would still need something to to get the image from the back of the lens to the viewfinder. Are you aware of anything that can do this optically - other than a mirror?On "photographically prepared" - sorry - during the 55 years I have been doing photography - with moving subjects if you develop the skill of learning where the subject will be when the shutter opens - you get the framing you want.Perhaps good workmen do not blame their tools

Leonard Shepherd wrote:cosmicnode wrote:on the shutter/back button until after the action to be captured has occurredThis is what EVF lag results in on a fast action photo, the delay in seeing where the subject is causes, you to adjust panning to what you see in the viewfinder and the result here has the car with too much space behind and too little in front.Surely you are discussing a "poor technique" challenge.With DSLR's you had the same issue - learning to account for the slight delay between the shutter being pressed, the mirror rising and the image then being taken.This is not the same issue, it is a addition to the almost infinitesimal delay of a DSLR. something I have never had a problem with. the EVF delay and blackouts destroy panning on the Z^ but this is not prevalent on a Olympus EM1XA optical viewfinder or perhaps that in the Z9 would not cause this problem. This is part of a sequence so neither of your reasons for not being "Photographically prepared" applyAn optically viewfinder would be nothing like as bright as a Z9 - by many stops, would not show white balance settings - and you would still need something to to get the image from the back of the lens to the viewfinder. Are you aware of anything that can do this optically - other than a mirror?On "photographically prepared" - sorry - during the 55 years I have been doing photography - with moving subjects if you develop the skill of learning where the subject will be when the shutter opens - you get the framing you want.Perhaps good workmen do not blame their toolsPerhaps your 55 years does not match my 60 years motorsport experience, I showed you a example of what the EVF does by delaying the image to the viewfinder  and the freeze framing during panning I am not commenting on other aspects of a mirrorless V optical, Brightness white balance etc is not the problem for me on either DSLR or mirrorless bodies,Good workmen understand  what their tools are capable off doing, and know when a tool needs replacing due to it not performing correctly. Poor workmen struggle with poor equipment refusing to believe there is a problem. I worked in industry for 50 plus years I don't need a lecture about tools.

cosmicnode wrote:Leonard Shepherd wrote:Ramon767 wrote:No, EVF lagThere is only EVF lag if you are not "Photographically prepared" without first pressure on the shutter/back button until after the action to be captured has occurredThis is what EVF lag results in on a fast action photo, the delay in seeing where the subject is causes, you to adjust panning to what you see in the viewfinder and the result here has the car with too much space behind and too little in front. A optical viewfinder or perhaps that in the Z9 would not cause this problem. This is part of a sequence so neither of your reasons for not being "Photographically prepared" apply.Honestly, this hasn't been a big problem for me.Yes, the Z6/Z7 have greater lag than a top-end DSLR (I came from a D5) - but it is constant and predictable.  With a bit of practice, it was quite easy to adjust my panning technique to allow for the lag.

briantilley wrote:cosmicnode wrote:Leonard Shepherd wrote:Ramon767 wrote:No, EVF lagThere is only EVF lag if you are not "Photographically prepared" without first pressure on the shutter/back button until after the action to be captured has occurredThis is what EVF lag results in on a fast action photo, the delay in seeing where the subject is causes, you to adjust panning to what you see in the viewfinder and the result here has the car with too much space behind and too little in front. A optical viewfinder or perhaps that in the Z9 would not cause this problem. This is part of a sequence so neither of your reasons for not being "Photographically prepared" apply.Honestly, this hasn't been a big problem for me.Yes, the Z6/Z7 have greater lag than a top-end DSLR (I came from a D5) - but it is constant and predictable. With a bit of practice, it was quite easy to adjust my panning technique to allow for the lag.The lag is not the greatest problem its the strobe effect of the image in the viewfinder when panning fast that is far worse.

cosmicnode wrote:I showed you a example of what the EVF does by delaying the image to the viewfinder and the freeze framing during panning I am not commenting on other aspects of a mirrorless V optical,I looked at the image you posted - and concluded you had not learned how to allow for the position of the image in the frame at the moment of capture.There is the work-around of framing slightly wide and cropping in post.Good workmen understand what their tools are capable off doing,Agreed - and they can build a wall with consistently straight lines in the mortar.and know when a tool needs replacing due to it not performing correctly.You mean as in worn out?Give me the same trowel as an experienced brick-layer - and predict who will build a wall to the highest standard!

Do you actually proof what you type? Keep your nose out of my photography skills, I’m not in the slightest interested in what you think of them.

I find the problem to be a showstopper.

Who is it aimed at, exactly?

Ramon767 wrote:Do you actually proof what you type?Yes.Lets leave it at that.

Ramon767 wrote:I find the problem to be a showstopper.If you have a specific application that isn't served by the current Nikon offering, better to move to another system. This doesn't mean that the Nikon Zs are bad cameras, just that they aren't the best tool for you. I have no interest it taking photographs of moving vehicles, and I find the Z7 ii does everything I need it to. I don't miss my D810, which it replaced.

Leonard Shepherd wrote:cosmicnode wrote:I showed you a example of what the EVF does by delaying the image to the viewfinder and the freeze framing during panning I am not commenting on other aspects of a mirrorless V optical,I looked at the image you posted - and concluded you had not learned how to allow for the position of the image in the frame at the moment of capture.The image is a example of what can happen, I have many examples that are positioned as I require, I keep informing you that this problem is caused by EVD delay and the strobe effect interfering with tracking.There is the work-around of framing slightly wide and cropping in post.Work around's, why should you have to use one.Good workmen understand what their tools are capable off doing,Agreed - and they can build a wall with consistently straight lines in the mortar.and know when a tool needs replacing due to it not performing correctly.You mean as in worn out?No as in not suitable for the purpose, the "that will do attitude" or "it's good enough"Give me the same trowel as an experienced brick-layer - and predict who will build a wall to the highest standard!That depends on the bricklayer.If the Z7 AF and the EVF for sports were so good for sports what would be the use of buying a Z9 with the same size sensor, I believe you bought one what improvements did you find in the EVF and sports focussing.Perhaps you could show us some of your motorsport photo's taken with a Z7,

Franz304 wrote:That's kinda a flawed logic, because if phones can take over APS-C, it doesn't take that much more to take over FF too. The reason APS-C has fallen behind more than FF is because camera makers hold back features in almost all of their APS-C bodies, because they paternalistically decided that DX=casual....but the casual segment of the market has been gone since years by now, so they will of course struggle selling such bodies.Fuji is the only company treating aps-c right, but even then, their smaller cams don’t get the goods and have actually been taking key features and buttons away from their smaller cams like xt30 and xe4. Of course those don’t get WR either. The xe4 had particularly been stripped from what the xe2 had... So to get more buttons and features or wr you have to get the x pro or x t4, then you’re spending FF money and into FF type weight.

cosmicnode wrote:If the Z7 AF and the EVF for sports were so good for sports what would be the use of buying a Z9 with the same size sensor, I believe you bought one what improvements did you find in the EVF and sports focussing.Perhaps you could show us some of your motorsport photo's taken with a Z7,I realise you were responding to Leonard rather than me, but anyway...I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting that the Z6/Z7 don't have some drawbacks for action photography. I've owned both cameras for 3 years and more recently added a Z9 - the Z9 viewfinder experience is clearly better.However, once I learnt to adapt to the slight viewfinder lag and "slideshow" effect, I'm not seeing the large proportion of missed (or mis-framed) shots that you have experienced.I don't shoot much motorsport, but I'm guessing that this Eurofighter Typhoon is at least as tricky a panning target, even on its final approach at around 160 knots (185mph). The shot was taken with the Z6 and 70-300mm at 300mm, and has only been cropped to 16:9 format:

jjz2 wrote:Franz304 wrote:That's kinda a flawed logic, because if phones can take over APS-C, it doesn't take that much more to take over FF too. The reason APS-C has fallen behind more than FF is because camera makers hold back features in almost all of their APS-C bodies, because they paternalistically decided that DX=casual....but the casual segment of the market has been gone since years by now, so they will of course struggle selling such bodies.Fuji is the only company treating aps-c right, but even then, their smaller cams don’t get the goods and have actually been taking key features and buttons away from their smaller cams like xt30 and xe4. Of course those don’t get WR either. The xe4 had particularly been stripped from what the xe2 had... So to get more buttons and features or wr you have to get the x pro or x t4, then you’re spending FF money and into FF type weight.Yes and no, you can already get almost everything with an XS10, which costs only 999$ on amazon. Sure, it does not have 100% features of the pro cameras, but that's really good value for the money. Above all, you get IBIS over the Z50.

briantilley wrote:cosmicnode wrote:If the Z7 AF and the EVF for sports were so good for sports what would be the use of buying a Z9 with the same size sensor, I believe you bought one what improvements did you find in the EVF and sports focussing.Perhaps you could show us some of your motorsport photo's taken with a Z7,I realise you were responding to Leonard rather than me, but anyway...I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting that the Z6/Z7 don't have some drawbacks for action photography. I've owned both cameras for 3 years and more recently added a Z9 - the Z9 viewfinder experience is clearly better.However, once I learnt to adapt to the slight viewfinder lag and "slideshow" effect, I'm not seeing the large proportion of missed (or mis-framed) shots that you have experienced.I don't shoot much motorsport, but I'm guessing that this Eurofighter Typhoon is at least as tricky a panning target, even on its final approach at around 160 knots (185mph). The shot was taken with the Z6 and 70-300mm at 300mm, and has only been cropped to 16:9 format:During panning, speeds of a camera and a subject are synchronized, so any EVF delay doesn't change relative position of the subject in the frame.However, a delay might make synchronization of both speeds harder and it can have an effect if the camera isn't tracking the subject.

I do see his point - EVF lag is a very different issue from shutter lag.  There are workarounds.

Ramon767 wrote:Who is it aimed at, exactly?Vloggers and video content creators.

ghostfox_1 wrote:but we can go around in circles all day, and we have our differing opinions there.It's cool, man. Opinions are just that.I would love for FF to come down in price and size to eliminate all this format war nonsense. But as of this moment APS-C, M43, etc., gear is still cheaper and more diverse, in general.