Bassam Guy wrote:Henry Stamm wrote:Interesting discussion from all sorts of views. Since I have almost 0 interest in small or lightweight primes--heck, I do street shooting sometimes with my 50-200 (being at a distance has advantages)--if I wanted wide & fast, I would pony up for the PL 10-25 f1.7. I rented that lens last year for a trial. It's great at what it does and worked wonderfully well on my em1.2. That said, I much preferred using the PL 25-50mm f1.7. I really just don't do wide very often. I do have a lightweight fast prime that I use for portraits: the quite affordable Sigma 30mm f1.4. I never have used it as a walkabout lens, however.Oh the joy of mounting a small prime and pocketing another for a day! Oh, let me bring a spare battery, and a small tripod just in case. Guess I need a backpack. Oh, the 12-40s already packed, may as well keep it there... and the 75 can't hurt.Oh the joy of mounting a small prime and pocketing another for a day!Hmmm.  I can't imagine going out to shoot without my backpack and it's extra lenses and accessories LOL.But then, moving from my E-5 and grip to my em1.2 and grip seemed like a huge reduction in weight and size, and it is.  But I admit that every once in a while, I'll carry just my camera (grip always attached) and my trusty lightweight & small (from my perspective) PL 35-100 f2.8 or PL 12-60 f2.8-4 and deal with a bit of anxiety of not having a longer zoom at my disposal.Oh the joy, indeed!

scratched wrote:Cornflake7 wrote:Dunsun wrote:There is no more interest in street photography anymore for m43. So no Pen F II. It's nice we have quadrillion of lenses but the last small, light and not downgraded cameras were Panas GX8 + Oly Pen F. Sadly I think they were last we saw for m43.As you can see in every format there is little interest for RF bodies. Fuji also confirmed that without X-T line they would stop the digital imaging business because sales were so low. Only Sony pushes RF bodies in APSC line but this is mainly they want you to upgrade to FF line. Yes, they have the A7C but this is a parts bin product. Also Pen F was just a JPEG camera with large sensor. And terrible CDAF. If they really release a high-end Pen it wil feature an OM-5 HW. Better than GX9 or even older GX8.OMDS has geared itself to concentrate on the premium OM1 system this is evident in their new lens releases as well as their advertising.Of course they fit avertising towards OM-1 because it is a high-margin and the only new flagship body they have. OM-5 is another level of advertising for anyone interested in a small, rugged and sealed body.The Pen F is pretty useless for street photography unless one uses it manually, auto focusing in dim light is just too slow. It does look the part but I doubt if it is on any dentist's bucket list.PEN F was terrible, no doubt. A high-end sealed PEN could hit some user groups (with an OM5/E-M1iii HW). Personally I would welcome an OM-3 (form factor similar to the orignal E-M1).

Cornflake7 wrote:scratched wrote:Cornflake7 wrote:Dunsun wrote:There is no more interest in street photogrsaphy anymore for m43. So no Pen F II. It's nice we have quadrillion of lenses but the last small, light and not downgraded cameras were Panas GX8 + Oly Pen F. Sadly I think they were last we saw for m43.As you can see in every format there is little interest for RF bodies. Fuji also confirmed that without X-T line they would stop the digital imaging business because sales were so low. Only Sony pushes RF bodies in APSC line but this is mainly they want you to upgrade to FF line. Yes, they have the A7C but this is a parts bin product. Also Pen F was just a JPEG camera with large sensor. And terrible CDAF. If they really release a high-end Pen it wil feature an OM-5 HW. Better than GX9 or even older GX8.OMDS has geared itself to concentrate on the premium OM1 system this is evident in their new lens releases as well as their advertising.Of course they fit avertising towards OM-1 because it is a high-margin and the only new flagship body they have. OM-5 is another level of advertising for anyone interested in a small, rugged and sealed body.The Pen F is pretty useless for street photography unless one uses it manually, auto focusing in dim light is just too slow. It does look the part but I doubt if it is on any dentist's bucket list.PEN F was terrible, no doubt.I have trouble understanding this.  Leica sells M-9's and 10's at outrageous prices and they can't AF at all.  Fuji manages to sell  X-pro's that are no champions of AF either.Why can't Oly make a niche rangefinder style camera and be profitable?Answer: price point.  Instead of going for the top of the ILC market, go low.Make a small FR style body (E-pm size) with OM-10 mechanicals for $600.00 USD body only.  Nobody complains about the OM-10 AF because they aren't expecting or paying for flagship AF.It doesn't have to be high end, just fun.  The lens catalog will take care of the rest.A high-end sealed PEN could hit some user groups (with an OM5/E-M1iii HW). Personally I would welcome an OM-3 (form factor similar to the orignal E-M1).Tedolph

EP-7 launched 2021Mark

Mark Thornton wrote:EP-7 launched 2021No EVF, no EVF port, no viewfinder, no deal.Glorified cell phone camera.Good for Japanese teenage girl market.MarkTEdolph

I believe there are some in here who quite like it despite being a long way from their teenage years (and neither Japanese nor female).For now I am sticking with my GX9, but were it to fail the replacement would probably be an OM-5.Mark

The Pen F is pretty useless for street photography unless one uses it manually, auto focusing in dim light is just too slow. It does look the part but I doubt if it is on any dentist's bucket list.PEN F was terrible, no doubt. A high-end sealed PEN could hit some user groups (with an OM5/E-M1iii HW). Personally I would welcome an OM-3 (form factor similar to the orignal E-M1).I never stated that ist was terrible just one has to use it in manual mode as there is no time to pussyfoot around trying auto focus.Manual focusing is easy with any lens sub 50mm in FF terms which are the better focal lengths for street work. Few here seem to shoot manually as they prefer to stick to the bells and whistles auto everything, so to them some cameras are duds. It's really not that hard to understand distances and light and it does help to stop playing with a camera and use it to take photographs.

There are too many situations where a VF is a vital piece of arsenal, It's the downfall of smartphones and the Ricoh GR series.

Yes, and in those cases you might want to use something else. Not all of my photos are taken with my GX9, occasionally my phone is the right tool.Mark

tedolf wrote:Cornflake7 wrote:PEN F was terrible, no doubt.I have trouble understanding this. Leica sells M-9's and 10's at outrageous prices and they can't AF at all. Fuji manages to sell X-pro's that are no champions of AF either.Why can't Oly make a niche rangefinder style camera and be profitable?Answer: price point. Instead of going for the top of the ILC market, go low.Make a small FR style body (E-pm size) with OM-10 mechanicals for $600.00 USD body only. Nobody complains about the OM-10 AF because they aren't expecting or paying for flagship AF.It doesn't have to be high end, just fun. The lens catalog will take care of the rest.A high-end sealed PEN could hit some user groups (with an OM5/E-M1iii HW). Personally I would welcome an OM-3 (form factor similar to the orignal E-M1).TedolphThey can't no longer target sub $800 market (almost no margin). With very low volume RF camera there are not enough customers to support the product. Thus the only chance is going upmarket. If done right ppl will buy it. EVF, fast AF, good IQ, sealed design with good ergonomics and customization is no cheap these days.Just for comparison: the E-P7 was around €800 (when sold in Europe) - no EVF, CDAF only, no sealing...

scratched wrote:The Pen F is pretty useless for street photography unless one uses it manually, auto focusing in dim light is just too slow. It does look the part but I doubt if it is on any dentist's bucket list.PEN F was terrible, no doubt. A high-end sealed PEN could hit some user groups (with an OM5/E-M1iii HW). Personally I would welcome an OM-3 (form factor similar to the orignal E-M1).I never stated that ist was terrible just one has to use it in manual mode as there is no time to pussyfoot around trying auto focus.Manual focusing is easy with any lens sub 50mm in FF terms which are the better focal lengths for street work. Few here seem to shoot manually as they prefer to stick to the bells and whistles auto everything, so to them some cameras are duds. It's really not that hard to understand distances and light and it does help to stop playing with a camera and use it to take photographs.It is 2023. Any camera without fast and reliable AF is done. Look what ppl want these days: AI AF modes. Also ppl want to shoot stills and video and share it. This instant era requires the camera will do the most work (= deliver satisfactory results). You have to target potential buyers who comes from smartphones and have no patience to mess around with manual. It is sad but this is reality.

Cornflake7 wrote:tedolf wrote:Cornflake7 wrote:PEN F was terrible, no doubt.I have trouble understanding this. Leica sells M-9's and 10's at outrageous prices and they can't AF at all. Fuji manages to sell X-pro's that are no champions of AF either.Why can't Oly make a niche rangefinder style camera and be profitable?Answer: price point. Instead of going for the top of the ILC market, go low.Make a small FR style body (E-pm size) with OM-10 mechanicals for $600.00 USD body only. Nobody complains about the OM-10 AF because they aren't expecting or paying for flagship AF.It doesn't have to be high end, just fun. The lens catalog will take care of the rest.A high-end sealed PEN could hit some user groups (with an OM5/E-M1iii HW). Personally I would welcome an OM-3 (form factor similar to the orignal E-M1).TedolphThey can't no longer target sub $800 market (almost no margin). With very low volume RF camera there are not enough customers to support the product. Thus the only chance is going upmarket. If done right ppl will buy it. EVF, fast AF, good IQ, sealed design with good ergonomics and customization is no cheap these days.Just for comparison: the E-P7 was around €800 (when sold in Europe) - no EVF, CDAF only, no sealing...Also no excuse for not providing and EVF port.If they had done that, it would be a competitive camera.TEdolph

glassoholic wrote:for those that like to keep Oly lenses on Oly cameras, and/ or get a true 28mm equiv. FL, I think a 14 could be quite popular. Priced a bit less than the PL 15 would help too for sales.Why is it necessary to keep Oly lens on Oly bodies?  We already have a very good, inexpensive, and tiny 14/2.5 from Penny.  However, I don't think it is a hot selling lens, not because it is not fast enough or weather-sealed but because it is a niche focal length.  I had one, sold it, and then bought one used later when i was looking for a light weight lens for backpacking.  The lens has not seen actual use after I simply upgraded my iPhone with a much better camera.Adding fast aperture, weather sealing will add bulk and weight and increase the price, which are the kind of things that drove Olympus out of business.  There is just not a big enough market for that type of lens in this focal length.

Cornflake7 wrote:scratched wrote:The Pen F is pretty useless for street photography unless one uses it manually, auto focusing in dim light is just too slow. It does look the part but I doubt if it is on any dentist's bucket list.PEN F was terrible, no doubt. A high-end sealed PEN could hit some user groups (with an OM5/E-M1iii HW). Personally I would welcome an OM-3 (form factor similar to the orignal E-M1).I never stated that ist was terrible just one has to use it in manual mode as there is no time to pussyfoot around trying auto focus.Manual focusing is easy with any lens sub 50mm in FF terms which are the better focal lengths for street work. Few here seem to shoot manually as they prefer to stick to the bells and whistles auto everything, so to them some cameras are duds. It's really not that hard to understand distances and light and it does help to stop playing with a camera and use it to take photographs.It is 2023. Any camera without fast and reliable AF is done. Look what ppl want these days: AI AF modes. Also ppl want to shoot stills and video and share it. This instant era requires the camera will do the most work (= deliver satisfactory results). You have to target potential buyers who comes from smartphones and have no patience to mess around with manual. It is sad but this is reality.So how do you explain the commercial viability of Leica and Fuji  X-Pro?Tedolph

tedolf wrote:Cornflake7 wrote:scratched wrote:The Pen F is pretty useless for street photography unless one uses it manually, auto focusing in dim light is just too slow. It does look the part but I doubt if it is on any dentist's bucket list.PEN F was terrible, no doubt. A high-end sealed PEN could hit some user groups (with an OM5/E-M1iii HW). Personally I would welcome an OM-3 (form factor similar to the orignal E-M1).I never stated that ist was terrible just one has to use it in manual mode as there is no time to pussyfoot around trying auto focus.Manual focusing is easy with any lens sub 50mm in FF terms which are the better focal lengths for street work. Few here seem to shoot manually as they prefer to stick to the bells and whistles auto everything, so to them some cameras are duds. It's really not that hard to understand distances and light and it does help to stop playing with a camera and use it to take photographs.It is 2023. Any camera without fast and reliable AF is done. Look what ppl want these days: AI AF modes. Also ppl want to shoot stills and video and share it. This instant era requires the camera will do the most work (= deliver satisfactory results). You have to target potential buyers who comes from smartphones and have no patience to mess around with manual. It is sad but this is reality.So how do you explain the commercial viability of Leica and Fuji X-Pro?TedolphI don't think the Leica M cameras are relevant here. That's a completely different market segment. One of doctors and lawyers concerned more with status and owning a piece of jewelry.The Fujis X-Pro and X-E lines are more comparable. Though I don't think the X-Pros have ever been all that popular, Fuji's most popular cameras have been the XT line and if they hadn't brought those out and instead focused on the range finder bodies, Fuji probably would have ditched the X system years ago.Anyway, I agree that a refreshed, premium Pen-F with the PDAF sensor from the EM1/5, weather sealing, and similar styling to the original (minus the JPEG dial please), would appeal to a certain market. Is it a big enough market to make sense? I'm not sure. With the OM-5 at $1100, Olympus might be able to charge $1300 for this camera? Original retail was $1200 so maybe they would need to charge even more for what is likely to be a low-volume seller. So let's call it $1500 in today's market. How many people would buy it over an OM5 or used EM5 III? That's nearly the price of a Sony A7c as well, with a much larger sensor and excellent AF system.I think a Pen (be it F or not) with an EVF and without weather sealing, a la the Fuji X-E4 at a price of $1000 or less would probably appeal to a lot more people. The Fuji is $850 for reference. I think the Pen-F was Olympus giving this concept a go, and they didn't like the results. Maybe someone at OM systems feels differently and will revive it. Personally, I hope they do.

Cornflake7 wrote:scratched wrote:The Pen F is pretty useless for street photography unless one uses it manually, auto focusing in dim light is just too slow. It does look the part but I doubt if it is on any dentist's bucket list.PEN F was terrible, no doubt. A high-end sealed PEN could hit some user groups (with an OM5/E-M1iii HW). Personally I would welcome an OM-3 (form factor similar to the orignal E-M1).I never stated that ist was terrible just one has to use it in manual mode as there is no time to pussyfoot around trying auto focus.Manual focusing is easy with any lens sub 50mm in FF terms which are the better focal lengths for street work. Few here seem to shoot manually as they prefer to stick to the bells and whistles auto everything, so to them some cameras are duds. It's really not that hard to understand distances and light and it does help to stop playing with a camera and use it to take photographs.It is 2023. Any camera without fast and reliable AF is done. Look what ppl want these days: AI AF modes. Also ppl want to shoot stills and video and share it. This instant era requires the camera will do the most work (= deliver satisfactory results). You have to target potential buyers who comes from smartphones and have no patience to mess around with manual. It is sad but this is reality.Of course I know that auto everything is king I referred to it in an earlier post.I was referring to the Pen Fas it exists nowwith its iffy auto focusing and that if one uses manual mode it's a damn fine camera.My reference to smartphones was about the lack of viewfinder not any other aspects

I don't think the Leica M cameras are relevant here. That's a completely different market segment. One of doctors and lawyers concerned more with status and owning a piece of jewelry.Total rubbish, many a photographer aspires to own a Leica both for its lens qualities and rangefinder format. It just that most cannot afford it so they write nonsense as you have and waffle on about cameras that don't exist.ps My first camera as a teenager was a used Leica, I saved up for one. The choice as motorbike or camera, chose the camera went to the wreckers and built my own motorbike.

G1Houston wrote:glassoholic wrote:for those that like to keep Oly lenses on Oly cameras, and/ or get a true 28mm equiv. FL, I think a 14 could be quite popular. Priced a bit less than the PL 15 would help too for sales.Why is it necessary to keep Oly lens on Oly bodies? We already have a very good, inexpensive, and tiny 14/2.5 from Penny. However, I don't think it is a hot selling lens, not because it is not fast enough or weather-sealed but because it is a niche focal length. I had one, sold it, and then bought one used later when i was looking for a light weight lens for backpacking. The lens has not seen actual use after I simply upgraded my iPhone with a much better camera.Adding fast aperture, weather sealing will add bulk and weight and increase the price, which are the kind of things that drove Olympus out of business.(I think that is speculation. Do you have any real data to prove it?)I am one that would be interested in an 14 f1.7/1.8/maybe 2, which shouldn't be too expensive. Aperture is about something called "depth of field" (google it for more info) in addition to brightness.There is just not a big enough market for that type of lens in this focal length.(Yet more speculation. Do you have any real data to prove it?)I would likely buy one. That is a big enough market for me

scratched wrote:I don't think the Leica M cameras are relevant here. That's a completely different market segment. One of doctors and lawyers concerned more with status and owning a piece of jewelry.Total rubbish, many a photographer aspires to own a Leica both for its lens qualities and rangefinder format. It just that most cannot afford it so they write nonsense as you have and waffle on about cameras that don't exist.ps My first camera as a teenager was a used Leica, I saved up for one. The choice as motorbike or camera, chose the camera went to the wreckers and built my own motorbike.Certainly, there are photographers who skrimp and save and appreciate Leicas because they are good photographic tools. But that's not Leica's primary market, or at least it hasn't been for decades. It's a luxury brand bought primarily by the wealthy.You make my point with your motorcycle comparison. The price of a Leica equates to that of a motor vehicle. There aren't a lot of people cross-shopping cameras and modes of transportation. A Pen-F or EP7 is a relatively affordable consumer good along the lines of a cell phone or laptop.

EarthQuake wrote:scratched wrote:I don't think the Leica M cameras are relevant here. That's a completely different market segment. One of doctors and lawyers concerned more with status and owning a piece of jewelry.Total rubbish, many a photographer aspires to own a Leica both for its lens qualities and rangefinder format. It just that most cannot afford it so they write nonsense as you have and waffle on about cameras that don't exist.ps My first camera as a teenager was a used Leica, I saved up for one. The choice as motorbike or camera, chose the camera went to the wreckers and built my own motorbike.Certainly, there are photographers who skrimp and save and appreciate Leicas because they are good photographic tools. But that's not Leica's primary market, or at least it hasn't been for decades. It's a luxury brand bought primarily by the wealthy.You make my point with your motorcycle comparison. The price of a Leica equates to that of a motor vehicle. There aren't a lot of people cross-shopping cameras and modes of transportation. A Pen-F or EP7 is a relatively affordable consumer good along the lines of a cell phone or laptop.No the motorbike was a lot dearer that's why when I was a teenager I bought the film camera and made up a bike from wrecked parts most were for free because I was a young kid. But it was about not buying because of gas and I want mentality it was about buying a great product.I know lots of photographers and hobbyists who own Leicas  none are particularly wealthy